Tool library defaults read into High speed toolpath

[Andy_Wallis]

How do you get Mastercam X8 to read the cutter definitions into the high speed toolpath options? 

I end up with all sorts of bizarre figures in my stepdowns/stepovers even though they are correct in the tool definition. I contacted 4D in the UK and the recommended changing the .formula defaults in the "save parameters to default" option at the top of the high speed parameter window, which works when remembering only one tool type. I use an arsenal of tooling from 32mm high speed roughing tools to 0.2mm cutters - which would obviously be obliterated if I bring in the defaults from .formula file for the previously saved tool. 

Which is why it would be easier if the parameter from the tool read straight into high speed parameters page.

I genuinely think 4D are stumped.

Under "machine group properties" - then "tool settings" tab the use "tools step, peck, coolant" and I cannot find anything else to help make the process slicker.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers Everyone.

[nickbe10]

4 hours ago, Andy_Wallis said:

Any advice would be appreciated.

Without wishing to sound negative, I would recommend upgrading to X9 to start.

The High speed toolpaths have always been glitchy / difficult and this was nowhere more evident than in X7 and X8.

I never even downloaded them, went straight from X6 to X9, along with many others.

I don't generally have a problem with reading parameters in from tools in my tool libraries as long as it is the initial set up. Where I still run into problems is editing a pre existing toolpath and being sure it "buys" the new parameters.

The Apply button helps here before you Green Check out. I have even used the return to defaults and then re entering the edit, then Apply and this will sometimes force the new parameters.

 

[Andy_Wallis]

Thanks nickbe10.

Yeah I wish I could, I actually have access to the newer versions (2018/19) but the issue in our company we are only a small firm. I am the main programmer for all the CNC's in the factory the other two seats we have are only really used for size amendments from cutter wear or as a preview for what I have programmed or on the fly adjustments (everything we manufacture is a one off).

My seat is the only seat on support, we would need to a service package for the other two seats if I upgraded my version so they could read which ever version of Mastercam I'm using and at £8-10k it isn't a immediate requirement. 

Thanks for response though!

[JoshC]

If you turn on the setting shown in the image below, then if your XY stepover is properly defined in the tools it will set your stepover for you in the toolpaths based on the selected tool. I hope this resolves the problem, you can make this setting a default. and this check box is helpful for other tasks too because if i have a drill toolpath for example but i select a tap it will even change the drilling cycle to tapping so it has other handy uses too. 

edit: just noticed you might already know about this setting after re-reading the original post, did this setting not work for you? because when i just tested this check box it worked well and pulled in the stepover but maybe i overlooked something else 

[nickbe10]

1 hour ago, Andy_Wallis said:

Thanks for response though!

Oh well, I take it you don't have a maintenance package with your reseller?  If you did I would expect them to help you out with this, especially as you have already upgraded to 2018/19.

Don't forget any of your HASPS will read work for all previous versions too. So you just need the Installation .EXE file for X9 to get going.

The other alternative might be to just upgrade the problem files to 2019 (I bypassed 2017 and 2018 for the same reasons as above).

The GUI is somewhat different but they have made further improvements to the HS toolpaths.

[Andy_Wallis]

nickbe10,

Yes we have maintenance but only one seat of Mastercam (we have three) but this particular issue has been going on for a while and (I think) they may be struggling with a solution other than as my first post, as there contact with me has diminished! I'll be honest I don't know what advantages 2019 has over X8 other than what you mentioned above. It would be too expensive for not much pay back to upgrade all three seats at once. 

Also word is CAM software manufacturers are looking towards a monthly/annual fee to use there software as companies (like mine) are just buying the seat with 12months maintenance then keeping using the software at no additional cost.

JoshC,

Yes I have that box activated, and works well with coolant, drilling & stepovers - never had an issue! But the step downs read directly from the defaults are ignored. 

Also......

I read the .formula file and it states step down are calculated at "dx0.1" which is  a horrendous rule given there are so much versatility with tooling on the market now-a-days.

I don't know if this can be changed to read the defaults????

@Jayson Kramer-CNC Software can you help with this?

Thanks all 

 

[jlw™]

4 hours ago, Andy_Wallis said:

Also word is CAM software manufacturers are looking towards a monthly/annual fee to use there software as companies (like mine) are just buying the seat with 12months maintenance then keeping using the software at no additional cost.

A lot of vendors have gone to this sales model.  Maybe I'm old school but I hate it.  I have ZERO interest in cloud based and I will go down kicking and screaming before I give in to a subscription service.

IMO the subscription model gives too much room for them to screw you and hold your own data over your head.  As in you can't even use old files without active subscription.

[So not a Guru]

1 hour ago, jlw™ said:

IMO the subscription model gives too much room for them to screw you and hold your own data over your head

I fully agree. The subscription model is just a continuation of our slide into vampire capitalism. Adam Smith would not recognize, what we today, call capitalism and would probably be repulsed and offended to have it associated with the system he championed.

Windows, since the release of Windows 10, is essentially doing this with it's operating system.

[jlw™]

40 minutes ago, So not a Guru said:

Windows, since the release of Windows 10, is essentially doing this with it's operating system.

Attacking and limiting privacy along the way.

[nickbe10]

3 hours ago, jlw™ said:

Also word is CAM software manufacturers are looking towards a monthly/annual fee

 

3 hours ago, jlw™ said:

A lot of vendors have gone to this sales model.

I haven't heard anything about MC adopting this model.

Mostly it's companies without the market penetration that MC has , so they need additional revenue streams.

Word round the campfire in the PNW is that Boeing Compliance is looking at subscription service as a violation of your NDA with Boeing which is pretty clear about controlling their data. Which if your CAM company pulls the plug is now at best held hostage.

[jlw™]

I haven't heard anything about CNC going to this model either - part of why I like the company and product.  Just wanted to get my disdain out for public review.

[crazy^millman]

2 hours ago, nickbe10 said:

 

I haven't heard anything about MC adopting this model.

Mostly it's companies without the market penetration that MC has , so they need additional revenue streams.

Word round the campfire in the PNW is that Boeing Compliance is looking at subscription service as a violation of your NDA with Boeing which is pretty clear about controlling their data. Which if your CAM company pulls the plug is now at best held hostage.

It is also possibly a violation of ITAR, DoD, FAR, DFARS and  NIST SP800-171, NIST SP800-53 Cyber Security requirements. Any company using a subscription service is risking violating many of the requirements outlined by any one of these compliance requirements.

[Jayson Kramer]

I am not sure what I can really do being such and old version . I can try later to look into this. can you share a sample file and the Library you have setup?

[Andy_Wallis]

@Jayson Kramer-CNC Software Thanks for the response.

In the parameter page below when I bring a 32.2mm high feed roughing tool from the library to the parameter window the stepover comes in correct BUT the stepdown comes in at 3.22mm. The default is set to 1.6% or 32.2x1.6% = 0.512mm. The .formula file over rides this default and uses the following formula dx0.1 or 32.2x0.1 = 3.22.

I have attached a basic Zip2Go file for your analysis.

Below is the latest response from 4D in the UK:

Hi Andy

 

Adjusting the Rough Finish XY step %  in define tool is working in your Area Clearance toolpath for XY Stepover but not the stepdown that is coming from the formula file at a multiple of 0.1 but dont seem to be able to modify the formula file to change this. Each toolpath type has a its own formula, will send this off to CNC Software for their thoughts.

Kind Regards

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not hopeful for a response from CNC software as we have sent examples before and not received a reply, they probably get that many problems from all over the world that maybe they get lost in the pipeline.

Thanks for taking the time to look into it Jayson.

Kind Regards.

Andy

example for emastercam.Z2G

[Andy_Wallis]

I have found if I turn off the "automatically update HST defaults" and select the "recalculate values" manually the software does update the toolpath correctly from the defaults.

Its almost the auto update facility doesn't work very well - maybe a bug!?!?!

[Newbeeee™]

On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 5:18 PM, nickbe10 said:

 

Word round the campfire in the PNW is that Boeing Compliance is looking at subscription service as a violation of your NDA with Boeing which is pretty clear about controlling their data. Which if your CAM company pulls the plug is now at best held hostage.

Kudos to LazyB for specifying this

[Newbeeee™]

On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 1:57 PM, jlw™ said:

A lot of vendors have gone to this sales model.  Maybe I'm old school but I hate it.  I have ZERO interest in cloud based and I will go down kicking and screaming before I give in to a subscription service.

IMO the subscription model gives too much room for them to screw you and hold your own data over your head.  As in you can't even use old files without active subscription.

Nothing to add apart from highlighting this again because it's so well written

[Jayson Kramer]

confusion for some of you is. you think if a company goes to subscription service , That means the files have to go in the cloud along with the software.
This not true they can going with just a licensing of the software like Adobe does.

I could see it working like when Mastercam looks at the key at times when it is plugged in. So why could another software do the same thing at time it checks online to see you are still an active client.

[crazy^millman]

1 hour ago, Jayson Kramer-CNC Software said:

confusion for some of you is. you think if a company goes to subscription service , That means the files have to go in the cloud along with the software.
This not true they can going with just a licensing of the software like Adobe does.

I could see it working like when Mastercam looks at the key at times when it is plugged in. So why could another software do the same thing at time it checks online to see you are still an active client.

Problem is they stop your software from working with the subscription service that currently is not the case with a perpetual license.

[Jayson Kramer]

True,  you don't pay and the software stops working. but that is not what most of you are stating is the concern . the concern like Fusion were the file and software are not on your computer but in a cloud. I prefer to not have to pay a monthly or yearly cost in some cases I agree.

Of course with Mastercam as we are talking there is a yearly Maintenance cost so you are paying yearly in a way. but yes if you don't keep up on it it will still run were it last update was.

[Newbeeee™]

Jay,

Although I'm out the game at the moment, talking as a business owner I NEED to be able to double click on that 'lil icon and the software fire right up and work every time.

It is financial suicide to not have a perpetual licence.

 

Regarding the cloud, ITAR aside, I can see ease of use (I'd call it lazy) benefits from cloud storage, because "someone else" is storing and backing up my data on "their server" (cloud) instead of me doing it myself on my server that I'm fully in control over.

We all know the (small) risk to the business of data being stolen, but my worry would be internet going down or corruption of services.

So I'd never ever go cloud storage at all, because to me, reward in no way outweigh risks (and some of my stuff was ITAR anyway, so it was a no-no from the start).

 

In 12 years having the business, we never had 1x virus or big issue. At the end there was a network of 6 PC's (3x workstations, 1x CMM, 2x DNC laptops) all linked to a dual raid small server which auto backed-up and I'd keep a copy in the car (in case of fire).

There was only 1x interweb PC which handled emails and faxes which was standalone, and this suffered from windowze auto updates etc and caused more grief than the whole of the network. Auto updates of all softwares (graphics drivers etc) can be a killer to a small business IMO.

[jlw™]

17 hours ago, Jayson Kramer-CNC Software said:

True,  you don't pay and the software stops working. but that is not what most of you are stating is the concern . the concern like Fusion were the file and software are not on your computer but in a cloud. I prefer to not have to pay a monthly or yearly cost in some cases I agree.

Of course with Mastercam as we are talking there is a yearly Maintenance cost so you are paying yearly in a way. but yes if you don't keep up on it it will still run were it last update was.

I'm personally not conflating the issues.  I didn't intend to say that subscription meant cloud.  The two seem to go hand in hand so I mentioned both.  I don't like subscription models.  Period.  I think it could be a problem even if it is for licensing.  As Newb mentioned, I need it to work when I need it.  Not later, not only if my terribly unreliable internet is working.  Every time.  As it is, I can't remember a time when I double clicked on Mastercam that it ever failed to open.

Separate from that, I DETEST the "cloud."  Let's be honest with ourselves and call it what it is: some one else's server.

[crazy^millman]

4 hours ago, jlw™ said:

Separate from that, I DETEST the "cloud."  Let's be honest with ourselves and call it what it is: some one else's server.

That is the problem is most want to do some type of cloud based thing taking information about your work and sending it to the cloud. That is what gives all of these requirements an issue. I have to fight to go into some places with the USB hasp that is for Mastercam. They are afraid it can store sensitive information on it. I have had them scanned and run through security checks going into some blackops places. The steam roller is coming no doubt and older people who know what the net is and what is about understand the traps, but everyone accepts Facebook, Twitter and many other things into their daily lives as normal today so going to a cloud based process where we loose the rest of of control is coming no doubt.

[Jayson Kramer]

Ok so I understand no one including me want my files and software located in the Cloud or another server that is not mine.

But you all are against that  the License would be checked of line say once a week or so to make sure you are update on your Monthly or Yearly payments.
Some of these thoughts are for Smaller company's to get some of the higher end software's as they just cannot afford it one time.
There are more reasons to.

My thoughts are for all Cad and Cam software's. I am not stating that this what Mastercam is going to be doing so you know.

[nickbe10]

38 minutes ago, Jayson Kramer-CNC Software said:

Ok so I understand no one including me want my files and software located in the Cloud or another server that is not mine.

What concerns us up here in Boeing country (and is concerning Boeing) is that in several places in the NDA agreements (and I am sure in ITAR and others as well) it states quite clearly that you must be in full control of your data (actually Boeing's data) at ALL times. If the software company has the ability to "switch" you off (for whatever reason) then you are hardly in full control of the data. Note Boeing is not necessarily worried about data being transferred without authorization but an interruption in there JIT supply chain.