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Mill-Turn Machine Recommendation


MSL
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Hi,

We are looking to replace our big 1953 Lehmann lathe with a mill-turn machine. I’ve never ran a mill-turn machine and I need some feedback from you guys for machines and options. We are an R&D shop with a very low quantity of parts. In most cases one or two. Our main concern is the accuracy of the machine and customer service and support. Our initial selections are Mazak Integrex, Okuma Multus U, Doosan Puma MX, DMG/Mori, and Nakamura-Tome. Anyone using the MasterCam MT product? How accurate is the simulation since it is not running off of G-Codes?

 Thank you in advance for all the help.

 

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1 hour ago, MSL said:

Thank you in advance for all the help.

The main thing I have found is that these machines are not as rigid as you might want (and that includes things like the Mori's which are normally pretty rigid).

That B-axis head is just kinda' hanging there with 2 rotational  and a linear axis built in, so I guess its hardly surprising.

If you think of it as a lathe with some multi axis mill capability, rather than as a Mill/Lathe 50/50 combo then you will not be disappointed.

MT product all the way.

The fact that Mastercam Verify does not read the g-code but the .NCI file does not affect its accuracy. The NCI file has all the positional information that the .NC file has. What it doesn't have are the Misc. functions and true machine kinematics.

MT has a Synching manager which gives you a good graphic control of your wait codes.

The machine simulation in MT does reflect the machine kinematics, which standard normal MP does not.

Preparation is everything. These are complicated machines. Going back after the fact and then integrating MT AFTER install just makes it more difficult.

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Nick hit all the major points pretty well.

If it is up to me, I would never buy a Mill-Turn with a compound Y-Axis. These models have the Y-Axis mounted on a slide that is typically at 60 degrees to the X-Axis. This means Y-Axis motion always moves X at the same time, and they are damn hard to dial-in for proper accuracy. (Much easier when the machine has a full orthogonal Y-Axis.)

Mazak is basically the "Japanese Haas". They are cheaper than Okuma and Mori, but you get what you pay for.

What kind of accuracy do you need to hold? Also, it can be helpful to think of each "mode" for accuracy. For turning, you'll have no issues with hitting on-size features on the machine, since you can control those features with compensation. For Milling, it will depend on the machine configuration. In general, milling with the B-Axis Head should give you the best accuracy for tight features. If you buy a Mill-Turn with a "lower or upper turret", that has live-tooling, then much will depend on the accuracy of the Turret block itself, and the accuracy of how each individual Tool Block is mounted. As you use these Live-Turret-tools, you might find it difficult to hold True Position tolerance on features, as you will need to apply Comp, but often it turns into a nightmare trying to figure out issues with features not locating symmetrically around a part's centerline.

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Do your parts require a Horizontal machine? Would a Vertical Machine meet your needs? Horizontal MT for certain machines is more mature than others. Vertical machines are not MT driven yet and require the old school MP post driving them.

Every machine has its own strengths and weakness and not something I can go into on a forum since I have relationships with every MTB you have listed.

End of the day a good CAV would be what I would use with any CAM system.

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Have you considered WFL?

They are overkill for a lot of shops, but they are some of the best machines I've ever had the pleasure of programming.

You can't go wrong with Okuma or DMG/Mori, but how is the service and support from those builders, in your area? Sometimes a MTB can have the most amazing machines, but if the local support, service, and training are bad, then you will have nothing but struggles.

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Hi Colin,

I know I do not like compound Y-axis. They are not accurate. We do have a couple of lathes with live tooling. 80% of our lathe work has milling feature on it. Our typical true position tolerance is  .004".We are trying to remove some of the work load from our mills and If we can do some 5axis machining it's even better.

Thank you.

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I would also be remiss if I didn't mention the Matsuura Cublex. You can option them with both Turning and Grinding(!) options. Since 80% of your work has Mill features, this would be a slam dunk.

One of the biggest advantages to a machine like this is the Pallet Pool, which allows you to run with minimal operator intervention.

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6 hours ago, MSL said:

Hi,

We are looking to replace our big 1953 Lehmann lathe with a mill-turn machine. I’ve never ran a mill-turn machine and I need some feedback from you guys for machines and options. We are an R&D shop with a very low quantity of parts. In most cases one or two. Our main concern is the accuracy of the machine and customer service and support. Our initial selections are Mazak Integrex, Okuma Multus U, Doosan Puma MX, DMG/Mori, and Nakamura-Tome. Anyone using the MasterCam MT product? How accurate is the simulation since it is not running off of G-Codes?

 Thank you in advance for all the help.

 

Where are you located in California? 

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I've received really good support from Gosiger in CA on an old Macturn that refuses to die. Really can't go wrong with okuma IMHO.

do you need a Lathe first and foremost or would a five axis mill with turning be better? ...the old "are you making axles or wheels" question..

 Replacing an old engine lathe..never mind.

i think zoober had some issues with after lunch diameter inconsistency with Naks. Since Selway doesn't sell them anymore, they'd be off my short list.

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5 hours ago, mkd said:

I've received really good support from Gosiger in CA on an old Macturn that refuses to die. Really can't go wrong with okuma IMHO.

do you need a Lathe first and foremost or would a five axis mill with turning be better? ...the old "are you making axles or wheels" question..

 Replacing an old engine lathe..never mind.

i think zoober had some issues with after lunch diameter inconsistency with Naks. Since Selway doesn't sell them anymore, they'd be off my short list.

Who is Selway repping for a similar capability machine these days?

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I've received really good support from Gosiger in CA

We've got a very large Okuma 5X trunion style horizontal mill and an Okuma VTM-1200 5 axis vertical lathe

I cannot speak too highly of the service we have received from Gosiger or the quality of these machines.

The horizontal mill has spent 5 years doing heavy roughing in steel and is still a tack driver.

Last year we took on a reflective dish for a satellite antenna. The reflective surface had an insane tolerance.

We told them we couldn't hold it and quoted it "best effort".

The "best effort" we got from the HBM we roughed it on was not good enough so we took the finish pass on the

Okuma 5X mill. The results were so good our customer did not believe our CMM report.

They demanded we CMM it again and sent a rep out to witness the inspection....

Okuma's are not cheap, but they are more than worth the price.

 

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On 4/29/2019 at 11:53 AM, MSL said:

Hi,

We are looking to replace our big 1953 Lehmann lathe with a mill-turn machine. I’ve never ran a mill-turn machine and I need some feedback from you guys for machines and options. We are an R&D shop with a very low quantity of parts. In most cases one or two. Our main concern is the accuracy of the machine and customer service and support. Our initial selections are Mazak Integrex, Okuma Multus U, Doosan Puma MX, DMG/Mori, and Nakamura-Tome. Anyone using the MasterCam MT product? How accurate is the simulation since it is not running off of G-Codes?

 Thank you in advance for all the help.

 

JPL guys get all the good stuff.

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32 minutes ago, Brad Lisle said:

Gosiger has some of the best Applications Engineers and Service Techs on the west coast.

We are not really an Okuma shop but we got an Okuma lathe to do some specific shafting work. Okuma had the specs we needed and it is removed from our normal production flow. Great machine and Gosiger were the business.

Worked in a shop with a Mori NT, also nice. We have Mori Apps / Service engineers up here now (Pacific NW). Again very good.

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