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Mostly done in extensive upgrade in our use of Mastercam


sharles
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I know there are a lot of guys on this forum who I consider 'gurus' and their knowledge about Mastercam is so far beyond anything I have. But about 4 months ago our company's owner asked us to upgrade our abilities in Mastercam after I convinced him NOT to switch to Tebis software. And so we've been doing a ton of work in the stand-alone tool library, changed our posts, begun to use the simulation software and upgraded our use of the verify software. Along the way we had to figure out a lot of work-arounds and/or just figure out the idiosyncrasies of the Mastercam software.

I don't know if anyone else has faced a similar task, but it was daunting to say the least. We got help here, from mastercam.com, from our Mastercam reseller and also from an independent contractor, (shout out to Mark R. Fryman) that we hired for a time. If it wasn't for others helping us, we couldn't have made it, and so I just want to throw out the offer to help anyone else who might have questions about doing similar things. We are a proto-type mold and fixture shop: everything we make is one off, but our owner wanted to automate our machining processes as much as possible by stringing together as many tools and operations as possible so that our operators could hit the button and let multiple tools mill our parts and get it right the first time as we ONLY get one chance to get it right.

Maybe no one cares, or maybe others would want to offer their own tips and wisdom to this thread, too. I certainly don't know it all, but it's finally coming together after 4+ months of preparation, and it's kind of a good feeling to see it working and actually giving me more confidence in the programming that I do.

Scott

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These are some of the things we had to learn about as we upgraded things:

1) Varco Reports by Jim Varco

2) Machine Cloud

3) Customized the simulation software with the exact models of the milling machines we have.

4) Load in or make all the tooling holders we use, and custom draw some of the tooling as well as modify the generic tooling.

5) work with Mark R. Fryman of Machine Process Innovations to help us jumpstart things.

6) move up to 2019 and lots more...

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Tool libraries and operation defaults are a couple biggies.

there are different schools of thought on tool libraries. One is to have a library for every material with requisite speed and feed starting point input

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2 hours ago, Old_Bear said:

Nice.

That's a big undertaking to get all of that done..

My concern, is that your company relied so heavily on outside sources, who deals with the daily upkeep and changes that will surely come?

 

This is why a large part of my consulting work is actually Training. Especially when it comes to something complex like implementing Probing, editing Post Processors, or even cranking out a customized Setup Sheet.

I'll give a +1 to Jim Varco - Varco Reports. That guy is really good, and much faster than I am at figuring out the complex stuff. Sure, I can move around some boxes on the Active Reports, and add a custom field or two, but for things that require actual C# or VB.NET coding, I leave that to guys like Jim.

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15 hours ago, mkd said:

Tool libraries and operation defaults are a couple biggies.

there are different schools of thought on tool libraries. One is to have a library for every material with requisite speed and feed starting point input

For our tool library we went with two main settings: aluminum and steel, and simply added AL or FE to the end of any tooling name that could be used in either. From there we'll just edit speeds and feeds if needed. We didn't want to have to change material libraries all the time. And we converted all metric taps into our English library...

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15 hours ago, Old_Bear said:

Nice.

That's a big undertaking to get all of that done..

My concern, is that your company relied so heavily on outside sources, who deals with the daily upkeep and changes that will surely come?

 

The others helped us get up and running but a co-worker and I still put in a huge amount of time filling out the library and learning how to work with it and the other software contained in Mastercam, as well as some others at our company who helped at various points. So, sure, there are some things we would need help for in the future, but much of it we had to learn.

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13 hours ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

This is why a large part of my consulting work is actually Training. Especially when it comes to something complex like implementing Probing, editing Post Processors, or even cranking out a customized Setup Sheet.

I'll give a +1 to Jim Varco - Varco Reports. That guy is really good, and much faster than I am at figuring out the complex stuff. Sure, I can move around some boxes on the Active Reports, and add a custom field or two, but for things that require actual C# or VB.NET coding, I leave that to guys like Jim.

Jim was awesome. Apparently we had some needs he hadn't encountered before like stacking holders, extensions and tooling for our tool lists, and so he upgraded his software to include what we needed. He definitely went above and beyond what he had to do.

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Reading your post really got me thinking.  I started at this shop in April, and was my first time using Mastercam.  The posts (or lack thereof) are a mess.  Pretty much just using the generic posts for everything.  I've since pretty much nailed down a Matsuura HMC post, and a Matsuura VMC post.  Well, nailed down enough to be usable without making hand edits.   We have no tool libraries setup, no proper machine solids.  We are more or less just building each tool, with speeds and feeds from scratch each time.  The shop where I first started programming, used Esprit, and while the posts were better, we didn't have tool libraries, setup sheets, machine solids, etc there either, so I assumed that kind of thing was just a luxury that only the HUGE, super lean, corporate type shops took advantage of.

 

What I'm wondering about, is at what point is that necessary? Would we benefit?  It seems as though somebody would need to almost make it their full-time job for a period of time, until things are ironed out, which i would imagine, in the end, would pay off with the increase in efficiency.  We are a shop of 2 shifts, about 25-30 mills, and maybe 15-20 lathes.  We do small runs of parts.  Most often under 100 at a time.    We have 5 Mastercam mill programmers, and I believe only 1 or 2 for turning.  Would fine-tuning these things benefit us, or am I getting carried away?

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To my way of thinking, I'm asking why isn't it done already?

When I started where I am now in 15', they had HMC & VMC posts that required a fair bit of editing after post and had nothing extra for functionality in them...they did have some active reports setup sheets, mostly ironed out but still in need of some minor help...no tool libraries, no holder libraries, no machine sim, nothing else...

While I am the only one of 3 programmers here that programs all equipment, VMC, HMC, Mill/Turns & 5 axis, the most focus I end up is on production HMC work...20 spindles alone. about 40 spindles total and move on the way.

1st thing I did was dial in the HMC post to be edit free....as time allowed, I then did the VMC post, again edit free....tool libraries were next....creating specific tools on the fly and saving them into a common library, it really didn't take long before I had a library teeming with defined tooling....holders were next.....from there, tweaking the setup docs.....then finally the machine models and machsim...(we still need a CAV package though, machsim does have some limitations)

All of this has made my job easier, it has made it not only more reliable but more consistent as well...make no mistake about it, the setup guys appreciate that...I provide to them complete tool lists, p/n's included, tool assembly information, include holder, tool and stick out values, complete G10 offset output into the code...

The time that I have saved by utilizing all that was made available is huge....people are thrilled with how fast a complete job can set turned around from the programming office to the floor...in most cases their experience before all of this was weeks to now in many cases days....

Yes, defining everything single thing that you can, so that it is used over and over and over is nothing but a time savings...

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20 minutes ago, Old_Bear said:

To my way of thinking, I'm asking why isn't it done already?

Why isn't it done already is an interesting question.  In my opinion, it's lack of motivation, lack of willingness to adapt, and maybe lack of knowledge.  Despite having some very very nice machines, the shop is lacking in most other areas.  Tooling, holders, standardization is non-existent.  I've heard our reseller refer to it as the "Wild West"  and that's a very fitting description.  We only just recently purchased a tool pre-setter.  The owner is quite motivated to change, however.  I believe I will start with reading up on the Active reports designer, and the tool library management, and starting there.  My machining background is not quite as extensive as some others, so I tend to struggle with what functionality to add to posts, def files, etc.  However if I could get everyone on the same page, or even the same chapter, I could most likely find a way to implement the functionality they suggest.  

 

Hell, the first program I made, I had to explain how the G10 line worked, because up until then, they just hoped and prayed they didn't overwrite an offset in use!!!

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12 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

Hell, the first program I made, I had to explain how the G10 line worked, because up until then, they just hoped and prayed they didn't overwrite an offset in use!!!

We're in the process of moving to a lot of hard fixtures, Raptor, 5th Axis and such....

While importing the G10's, at first there was skepticism that it would be close enough....we did discover that when machining fixtures, we would get the greatest variance. That was directly related to stack ups' not meeting the models...with the hard fixtures, the G10 numbers for X & Z have been spot on....the Y we were chasing but that was related to how it was being references at the machine.....my post has been modified to calculate from the table now and everything going forward will come out that way, giving us a much greater accuracy...

I am trying to get the total setup down at the machine....that's my ultimate weapon for chasing a CAV package.....

This was not accomplished in a day but it's been a constant improvement.... 

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1 minute ago, Old_Bear said:

We're in the process of moving to a lot of hard fixtures, Raptor, 5th Axis and such....

While importing the G10's, at first there was skepticism that it would be close enough....we did discover that when machining fixtures, we would get the greatest variance. That was directly related to stack ups' not meeting the models...with the hard fixtures, the G10 numbers for X & Z have been spot on....the Y we were chasing but that was related to how it was being references at the machine.....my post has been modified to calculate from the table now and everything going forward will come out that way, giving us a much greater accuracy...

I am trying to get the total setup down at the machine....that's my ultimate weapon for chasing a CAV package.....

Perhaps its the type of work we do, but that's all way beyond me.  I would like to do some things to reduce setup time here.  However for now its just a matter of indicating fixtures, edge finders, etc. 

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10 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

Perhaps its the type of work we do, but that's all way beyond me.  I would like to do some things to reduce setup time here.  However for now its just a matter of indicating fixtures, edge finders, etc. 

It was for me at one time as well  ;)

 

the other option is do like above, bring in people to get it done...it really does pay for itself.

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7 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

indicating fixtures, edge finders,

i use a great time saver on my vise. I leave g54 set at the top left corner of the solid jaw and use the extension field for general setups.

there by eliminating the need for edge finding... I measure down to the jaw for my "Z" value , use a step block for "X" and fine tune "y" for how tight the part is held...

we work within .002" so it's good enough. of course tool libraries are a must. I like to start a new library named for the material that the tools are set up for. Whenever  I set up a new tool, I try to remember to save it. u right click the tool or double click it and set it up there instead of using the parameter page. then u have to right click again to save to liberary .

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3 hours ago, JB7280 said:

Reading your post really got me thinking.  I started at this shop in April, and was my first time using Mastercam.  The posts (or lack thereof) are a mess.  Pretty much just using the generic posts for everything.  I've since pretty much nailed down a Matsuura HMC post, and a Matsuura VMC post.  Well, nailed down enough to be usable without making hand edits.   We have no tool libraries setup, no proper machine solids.  We are more or less just building each tool, with speeds and feeds from scratch each time.  The shop where I first started programming, used Esprit, and while the posts were better, we didn't have tool libraries, setup sheets, machine solids, etc there either, so I assumed that kind of thing was just a luxury that only the HUGE, super lean, corporate type shops took advantage of.

 

What I'm wondering about, is at what point is that necessary? Would we benefit?  It seems as though somebody would need to almost make it their full-time job for a period of time, until things are ironed out, which i would imagine, in the end, would pay off with the increase in efficiency.  We are a shop of 2 shifts, about 25-30 mills, and maybe 15-20 lathes.  We do small runs of parts.  Most often under 100 at a time.    We have 5 Mastercam mill programmers, and I believe only 1 or 2 for turning.  Would fine-tuning these things benefit us, or am I getting carried away?

I had a similar thought a couple years back. I spent about a week customizing my Operation Defaults, setting up my tool libraries with speeds and feeds, and creating every single holder we use in my shop (some tooling assemblies as well). It was a gradual process improvement, I didn't just stop programming to do it, but I would say about 35 hours or so of work is how long it took. Customizing my Post Processors took a good while as well, working with the reseller as well as Postability.

I save SO MUCH TIME not having to change every damn parameter in my operation manager for each Op. Like, a lot of time. Also a lot less air cutting. I save so much time not having to modify speeds and feeds for high-speed operations, or any operation, really. So while there is a good bit of legwork up front, the dividends start to pay off almost immediately.

 

Do you use X+ for fixtures, etc? There are many many tools to help the Mastercam programmer's job easier and more fluid.

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On 5/29/2019 at 11:05 AM, sharles said:

I know there are a lot of guys on this forum who I consider 'gurus' and their knowledge about Mastercam is so far beyond anything I have. But about 4 months ago our company's owner asked us to upgrade our abilities in Mastercam after I convinced him NOT to switch to Tebis software. And so we've been doing a ton of work in the stand-alone tool library, changed our posts, begun to use the simulation software and upgraded our use of the verify software. Along the way we had to figure out a lot of work-arounds and/or just figure out the idiosyncrasies of the Mastercam software.

I don't know if anyone else has faced a similar task, but it was daunting to say the least. We got help here, from mastercam.com, from our Mastercam reseller and also from an independent contractor, (shout out to Mark R. Fryman) that we hired for a time. If it wasn't for others helping us, we couldn't have made it, and so I just want to throw out the offer to help anyone else who might have questions about doing similar things. We are a proto-type mold and fixture shop: everything we make is one off, but our owner wanted to automate our machining processes as much as possible by stringing together as many tools and operations as possible so that our operators could hit the button and let multiple tools mill our parts and get it right the first time as we ONLY get one chance to get it right.

Maybe no one cares, or maybe others would want to offer their own tips and wisdom to this thread, too. I certainly don't know it all, but it's finally coming together after 4+ months of preparation, and it's kind of a good feeling to see it working and actually giving me more confidence in the programming that I do.

Scott

Scott, which verification software did you end up going with?

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4 minutes ago, Metallic said:

Do you use X+ for fixtures, etc? There are many many tools to help the Mastercam programmer's job easier and more fluid.

I do have the X+ add-in, but I have not dug into it too much.  Partially due to the fact that it's been said it will no longer be a free add-in after 2020, and I don't see the company purchasing something like that.  I hesitate to spend time learning something that I won't be able to use anymore in a year.

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Looking at some of the various replies:

We simply had our reseller fix our posts for us. I used to mess with the posts some, a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure that's what the maintenance dues are for. We did have to purchase 2 new, 3-axis posts for $100 each, but then ALL changes are free from that point on. So whenever we have an issue, I send it back with the original program marked up with the changes we need. Sometimes I don't know how to fix a problem, and then our reseller always tries to lend their expertise to help us get it resolved.

As far as the library, we had 4 guys working on it over the course of 4 months. We probably have a couple hundred hours into it, and that doesn't include our consultant who figured out how to download what was available off the machine cloud to get us started. Anything beyond that, we used Mastercam's generic tooling and then modified the speeds, feeds, and tool-lengths to our needs. Sometimes we ending up redoing something as we tried it on the machines and decided to go a different direction. It was hard trying to stay productive in the midst of it, but in my opinion it's definitely worth it because now I feel a ton of confidence that if I 100% verify and then simulate my parts neither my holders nor machines will hit our castings that can be over 30" high at times with us using 10-15" long tools/holder/extensions.

As for paper work, we ended up using Jim Varco's tool list to produce a 'build sheet' for the guys on the floor, but we couldn't get his setup sheets how we wanted, and so we stuck with the Excel sheets that someone here formatted a long time ago, and we also use powerpoint to give pictures of setup orientation and also toolpaths, though management talks about going paperless at some point...

It was a ton of work, but I think it's been well worth the effort. In the past I had done a little bit of work in our library, and drew up holders on the fly as needed, but it's really nice being able to grab holders, or create 'assemblies' that I know are accurate and then still have the ability to modify them inside the operations using 'edit projection' and 'edit holder' functions on the tool and holder pages.

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On 6/3/2019 at 2:15 PM, Metallic said:

I save SO MUCH TIME not having to change every damn parameter in my operation manager for each Op.

Why stop at editing your toolpath defaults? Make an operations library. With toolpath defaults, you can only set the parameters for a single pocketing operation or a single contour operation. Don't you want different defaults if you're using a 3/16 end mill versus a 3/4 end mill in a pocketing toolpath? Take lead in/out, for example. Percentages can be OK for some of these settings but I like to define constant numbers for most of those things. You can do that with an ops library, but you can't with the defaults file.

Here's a few shots of my library. I have pocketing, contouring, finishing operations for each tool that I use. I also have groups of ops to perform common tasks like reaming, tapping, c'boring. I have all of my spot drill ops go a little deeper than actually needed so that when the hole is complete, there's already a chamfer on the hole. 95% of my programming is covered in my library so I just import the ops and go.

 

oplib1.jpg

oplib2.jpg

oplib3.jpg

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