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Plane Association MC 2020


dillon527
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53 minutes ago, GoetzInd said:

Haha I always knew you could create planes with lines, just not that they would remain associative after moving/rotating.

 

Mike 

Yes, the 'two lines' method has been around since V9 (ish), and the Associativity has been there for that long. The old command was Create Planes by Geometry. (Choose 3 Points, 2 Lines, or 1 Arc)

I will typically create a two-line pair, for every single Plane I need to create. I stick the Plane Geometry Pair on a unique level; one-for-each-plane. This gives you total control over the Plane orientation. I say this because we now have the "Reverse Endpoints" button on the Analyze Entity Properties. So you can swap the Start/End points on the lines, and then adjust the 3D Length, (or Swap X-X, Y-Y, or Z-Z Pairs). This allows you to "reorient the X-Axis" for example, if you have a Plane that needs to get "flipped around".

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...
38 minutes ago, Zbuilder said:

It doesn't work on 2020 for me either but it worked for me on all previous versions that had it. The main reason I still use 2019 for most all work I do. Less buggy... more reliable, even for all the 5 axis programming.

Well 2021 is out so not much hope of 2020 getting it addressed. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/6/2020 at 5:11 PM, Chally72 said:

I just tried this workflow in 2021 and yes, this does work with wireframe entities. It does not work if trying to associate the plane to a solid autocursor point, and if you do accidentally click on a solid autocursor point while trying to associate the plane, it will permanently break association functionality for that plane. The workaround is to create a plane "From Solid Face", whereupon solid entity association works as expected. That's all the 'gotchas' I know of- hope that helps.

So I just had my first experience with this in 2021 and associativity is still broken. I'm attaching the file for an example.

I setup a tooling ball on level 301 and created a tool plane called "30deg holes" from a point I created in the center of my tooling ball. Now I want to move that tooling ball to 0,0,0 and the numbers do not follow the point making the association broken.

If this doesn't work the same for anyone else let me know because I am really tired of dealing with this.

2B-78802 3RD OP.mcam

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1 hour ago, gms1 said:

So I just had my first experience with this in 2021 and associativity is still broken. I'm attaching the file for an example.

I setup a tooling ball on level 301 and created a tool plane called "30deg holes" from a point I created in the center of my tooling ball. Now I want to move that tooling ball to 0,0,0 and the numbers do not follow the point making the association broken.

If this doesn't work the same for anyone else let me know because I am really tired of dealing with this.

2B-78802 3RD OP.mcam

I cannot get it to work in your file. I made a new plane and made it associative to a point. I moved the point and it didn't move. I couldn't get your created plane to allow associative to work at all. Not you on that file in this case. I would submit to QC and have them take a look.

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9 minutes ago, crazy^millman said:

I cannot get it to work in your file. I made a new plane and made it associative to a point. I moved the point and it didn't move. I couldn't get your created plane to allow associative to work at all. Not you on that file in this case. I would submit to QC and have them take a look.

Not sure what your are trying to do

The associative check box on the 30 degree TP was not checked.

I reselected to point and the associative box became checked

If the 30 degree tool plane is active and I try yo move the tooling ball to the origin nothing happens because the tooling ball at the origin of "30 degree holes"

If I make Top active and moving the tooling ball to the origin the tooling ball moves and the point changes to 0,0,0,

 

 

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1 hour ago, gcode said:

Not sure what your are trying to do

The associative check box on the 30 degree TP was not checked.

I reselected to point and the associative box became checked

If the 30 degree tool plane is active and I try yo move the tooling ball to the origin nothing happens because the tooling ball at the origin of "30 degree holes"

If I make Top active and moving the tooling ball to the origin the tooling ball moves and the point changes to 0,0,0,

 

 

You cannot get that stupid associative checkbox to work period like Dave said, it just won't.

When I move the tooling ball and point I do it when I am in top view just like you did i just didn't write that step out. In versions prior to 2019 when I moved the tooling ball and point associated to the plane "30deg holes" it would keep the associativity and move the values with that point. This is what has been broken since 2019.

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Hey guys,

I recently took a deep dive into this myself to understand the behavior. There IS a reason you're having different experiences, where some of you can get it to work and some cannot- Associativity functionality can be affected by:

  • The type of entity you're associating to
  • The types of entities you have tried to associate to throughout the history of that plane
  • The initial method of plane creation. (Starting at the 1:20 mark in the below video)

I made a video for another user to demonstrate 2020 and 2021 behavior, what works, and what exact workflows can get us into trouble. Hopefully it can shed some light on this here. Note that this is just my own findings!

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, gcode said:

Not sure what your are trying to do

The associative check box on the 30 degree TP was not checked.

I reselected to point and the associative box became checked

If the 30 degree tool plane is active and I try yo move the tooling ball to the origin nothing happens because the tooling ball at the origin of "30 degree holes"

If I make Top active and moving the tooling ball to the origin the tooling ball moves and the point changes to 0,0,0,

 

 

Well I couldn't get it to ungrey and I tried everything you just laid out.

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2 minutes ago, gcode said:

I just hit the point selection arrow and reselected the point at the center of the tooling ball

Yes i tried that. I also moved the plane and then use pick point to put it back in place. I made a copy of the plane and tried doing many things with the copy of the plane. I tried about 10 different things and none of them would get the box to allow me to pick associative. Dylan posted a Video so maybe that will help them out.

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1 minute ago, crazy^millman said:

Yes i tried that. I also moved the plane and then use pick point to put it back in place. I made a copy of the plane and tried doing many things with the copy of the plane. I tried about 10 different things and none of them would get the box to allow me to pick associative. Dylan posted a Video so maybe that will help them out.

Definitely watch the video- you can permanently 'break' associativity for a plane by selecting certain entity types through the autocursor, AND it depends on how the plane was initially created, which is why everyone has such wildly varying success here.

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Ok, can we go back to 2017 planes now? That video doesn't explain wtf I am suppose to do.

If you want to repeat what i did here ya go:

model prep - hole axis on one of the 30deg holes in the side of part

in planes menu dropdown, create from entity normal, click hole axis line, set the correct orientation with the arrows (for me it was plane #5 of #8)

in the planes window click the arrow and select the point in the middle of the tooling ball to set zero

Now cuss yourself out and realize you need to move your zero, put the view back to top/top/top

translate tooling ball and point so the shoulder diameter (.46") of the tooling ball is at 0

make toolpaths

realize there is no such thing as associativity apparently and your toolpaths are out in space or through your expensive fixtures/parts

make post to see if anyone experiences the same thing as you to make sure you are not completely insane and your definition of associative is correct

 

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41 minutes ago, gms1 said:

Ok, can we go back to 2017 planes now? That video doesn't explain wtf I am suppose to do.

If you want to repeat what i did here ya go:

model prep - hole axis on one of the 30deg holes in the side of part

in planes menu dropdown, create from entity normal, click hole axis line, set the correct orientation with the arrows (for me it was plane #5 of #8)

in the planes window click the arrow and select the point in the middle of the tooling ball to set zero

Now cuss yourself out and realize you need to move your zero, put the view back to top/top/top

translate tooling ball and point so the shoulder diameter (.46") of the tooling ball is at 0

make toolpaths

realize there is no such thing as associativity apparently and your toolpaths are out in space or through your expensive fixtures/parts

make post to see if anyone experiences the same thing as you to make sure you are not completely insane and your definition of associative is correct

 

 

Hey GMS1,

I made a video showing under which conditions/autocursor points/entity types I could break associativity here on your example in 2021. Please let me know if you experience different behavior from anything I have shown here.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, gcode said:

gms1

was this file created in MC2021 from scratch, or created in an earlier version and imported into MC2021?

No I am not certain because I didn't start the file but it I believe it was started in 2019. Now you got me thinking to do this in a brand new file.

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So no its still broke. Opened the solid model of the part and tooling ball fresh in 2021 without anything else in the file and created an entity normal plane from a hole axis line, associated it to the circle on the tooling ball, it did checkmark the box which is great. Then I went to top view translated the tooling ball and circle 2 inches and noticed the zero numbers never moved from the original position of the tooling ball. And to add to the misery the associative checkbox is still checked LOL. Attaching picture for funzies.

Capture.JPG

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34 minutes ago, gcode said:

did you try making a point at the center of the ball and using that as the origin

Nope I thought this time I would do it like the video Dylan made just to show either points or circles still aren't working for me.

 

edit:: Please notice at no point in time do I use solid models for ANY associations. I never use them, I have always used wireframe for plane settings. This worked forever before 2020.

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  • 2 years later...

In 2021 plane associativity seems to be utterly, completely and totally broken and bugged. I have many times ran into a situation where deleting any wireframe geometry on a level will mess up your planes and dirty operations, even though the wireframe geometry has absolutely nothing to do with the planes (the "i" button that displays associations is not visible). Even when deleting wireframe that is actually associated and then canceling will do this!!  I wish there was a way to force the "associative" checkbox to be unticked by default, because sometimes I forget to untick it.

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