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Matsuura or Mitsui for Aerospace CNC


Eason K
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Hi All, 

We're a machine shop running for aerospace parts. We would like to purchase a new 5 axis CNC machine. Our shop is looking for two options, one is Matsuura MX850 and the other is Mitsui Vertex 75X II.  Right now, our current orders in Aerospace industry is made from material Stainless Steel PH13-8 and Aluminim Alloy. Most parts size are in range of 100mm to 500mm. The tolerance requirement is true position 0.0005''  and perpendicularity 0.0005". The challenge is that we need to keep the true position on two surface after turning the table on a 5 axis CNC. Please let me know your recommendation whether to choose Matsuura MX850  or Mitsui Vertex 75X II ?

Secondly, if to recommend other machine other than above two, which one would you suggest? Makino  D500 or DMG DMU50 orOkuma MU-6300V?

Thank you.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Eason K said:

Hi All, 

We're a machine shop running for aerospace parts. We would like to purchase a new 5 axis CNC machine. Our shop is looking for two options, one is Matsuura MX850 and the other is Mitsui Vertex 75X II.  Right now, our current orders in Aerospace industry is made from material Stainless Steel PH13-8 and Aluminim Alloy. Most parts size are in range of 100mm to 500mm. The tolerance requirement is true position 0.0005''  and perpendicularity 0.0005". The challenge is that we need to keep the true position on two surface after turning the table on a 5 axis CNC. Please let me know your recommendation whether to choose Matsuura MX850  or Mitsui Vertex 75X II ?

Secondly, if to recommend other machine other than above two, which one would you suggest? Makino  D500 or DMG DMU50 orOkuma MU-6300V?

Thank you.

 

 

We have parts of similar tolerances, and have a Yasda on the way that claims to be able to hold these tolerances.

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I would suggest that the tolerances that you need to hold should be explicitly written in your RFQ and make sure the quote agrees with them. Also the PO should state them as well. If the company accepts the PO and it's terms they are agreeing that the machine can hold these positional/ repeatable tolerances.

Yasada all the way.

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I am an Okuma fan. Their 5-axis tuning is top notch. Most builders will say they can do 5x checks with the probe but to make a difference the system needs to be able to apply real time comps while machining. If I was looking for a high end 5X machine any builder that wanted a chance at the sale would have to demonstrate this functionality to me to be considered.

 

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On 11/24/2019 at 10:34 AM, Eason K said:

Hi All, 

We're a machine shop running for aerospace parts. We would like to purchase a new 5 axis CNC machine. Our shop is looking for two options, one is Matsuura MX850 and the other is Mitsui Vertex 75X II.  Right now, our current orders in Aerospace industry is made from material Stainless Steel PH13-8 and Aluminim Alloy. Most parts size are in range of 100mm to 500mm. The tolerance requirement is true position 0.0005''  and perpendicularity 0.0005". The challenge is that we need to keep the true position on two surface after turning the table on a 5 axis CNC. Please let me know your recommendation whether to choose Matsuura MX850  or Mitsui Vertex 75X II ?

Secondly, if to recommend other machine other than above two, which one would you suggest? Makino  D500 or DMG DMU50 orOkuma MU-6300V?

Thank you.

 

 

Are you only wanting to mill them or was jig grinding an option, seems like we could machine them on any machine and leave stock in the bores then have a jig grinder take them the rest of the way, is that something you have considered or is that not a good option? just curious, that is how we held all our very tight tolerances is let the mills get them close and from there let surface/jig grinders bring them in from there. 

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Hi all,

Thanks for all the responses, it's really appreciated. We want Yasda but it is too expensive for us so we cannot afford this machine. The milling option we would like to proceed is to mill the part in 5 axis in one operation since we hope to reduce any risk of tolerance that might be caused by human behaviors during multi operations. Our current tool is OSG drill and Okasaki reamer. It seems that if we use these two machine Matsuura and Mitsui we cannot achieve the current 0.0005" tolerance.....

Just curious, if we ask our client to change the tolerance to 0.002", would you think these two machine Matsuura or Mitsui might be possible to achieve this 0.002" tolerance? Would you recommend Matsuura or Mitsui , and why you see this way? 

Bigs thanks, expect to hear your thoughts. 

 

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On our 520 we hold 50 micron true position with the tilting work plane easily.

 

The same part has a 20 micron true position on another face. It would bounce all over the place. The matsuura guy came down and the consensus was thermal growth. We used the g54.4 and I would have an moo and indicate the datum faces. Pain in the rump as the offsets were not linear (45 degree angle)but it worked.

 

Now that we have the probe it runs by itself. The boring bar op has it own sub program with a separate work offset. It runs around 10-15 micron true position. Sometimes under 10.

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9 hours ago, Eason K said:

Hi all,

Thanks for all the responses, it's really appreciated. We want Yasda but it is too expensive for us so we cannot afford this machine. 

Just curious, if we ask our client to change the tolerance to 0.002", would you think these two machine Matsuura or Mitsui might be possible to achieve this 0.002" tolerance?

 

Hang on... You have two things going on here.

Are you currently making the part? And IF you can get your customer to relax your tolerances to 0.002",  then that's the first thing to have discussed in the first place :rolleyes:

Or are you at the quoting stage because if you think it's too expensive to get the right machine to make the parts, wait until you actually start making them!

 

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Hi All, 

Thanks for the feedback. Actually we're testing this part currently by using Mitsui but the accuracy is unstable. ( p.s. i am not sure if the unstable accuracy is caused because the spindle collided before or the machine Mitsui itself ) Right now, since we need to take care on the workload as well as the testing of this part, so that's why we're evaluating a new machine. We're running production parts for aerospace already but we don't actually have enough machines. 

Our next step might be to go ask client if they can relax on the tolerance as the first thing. Then, we need to purchase a machine ASAP to share the workload. Just wanted to check if you would think Matsuura is a good option to be considered? 

Also, just out of simple curiosity, usually when you guys encounter tight tolerance from clients, you would also check with clients if there's space or room to relax the tolerance or you would normally do the hard way to make it happen? 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Eason K said:

we cannot achieve the current 0.0005" tolerance.....

Just curious, if we ask our client to change the tolerance to 0.002"

Those are WORLDS apart.  .002" true position you can hold on a Haas.  .0005" you need best of the best, and if you can't afford the machine to do it you can't afford to take the job.  As said before, getting the tolerance requirements as loose as possible should be the first priority, since as you're learning, tight tolerances cost money.

 

Part-Product-Dimensional-Tolerances.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Matthew Hajicek™ - Conventus said:

.0005" you need best of the best

and if you are serious about it,

you need  a temperature controlled work space, temperature controlled coolant and you need to store your material in a temperature controlled environment.

you also need a rigorous tool life management system

worn inserts may still have some useable life to them, but at some point they are inducing heat into your work.

Data like this can only be learned by trial and error though.

 

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36 minutes ago, gcode said:

and if you are serious about it,

you need  a temperature controlled work space, temperature controlled coolant and you need to store your material in a temperature controlled environment.

you also need a rigorous tool life management system

worn inserts may still have some useable life to them, but at some point they are inducing heat into your work.

Data like this can only be learned by trial and error though.

 

Yes sir funny how people just forget this and get penny wise and $1000 dumb real quick. 

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3 hours ago, Eason K said:

Also, just out of simple curiosity, usually when you guys encounter tight tolerance from clients, you would also check with clients if there's space or room to relax the tolerance or you would normally do the hard way to make it happen? 

It depends on the customer. Some might not even have a clue as to what they are asking for on a 500mm ALUMINUM part asking for .0005" true position. Unless the features are right next to each other, IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN. Look at the part wrong or breath on it and it's out of print.

 Anyways heat issues with the Matsuura line and their grease-pack spindles are well documented at this point. Construction design and materials are paramount to even get into this realm. Okuma 6300, Yasda and Mikron all have construction symmetry with a bridge type design. One of these are composite base, not iron.

 

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17 minutes ago, mkd said:

It depends on the customer. Some might not even have a clue as to what they are asking for on a 500mm ALUMINUM part asking for .0005" true position. Unless the features are right next to each other, IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN. Look at the part wrong or breath on it and it's out of print.

on a big part, even a 1° change in the temperature could put an aluminum part out of spec.

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1 hour ago, mkd said:

 Anyways heat issues with the Matsuura line and their grease-pack spindles are well documented at this point. Construction design and materials are paramount to even get into this realm. Okuma 6300, Yasda and Mikron all have construction symmetry with a bridge type design. One of these are composite base, not iron.

 

The Mitsu Seiki looks to have similar bridge construction. They do have a reputation similar to Yasda....dunno if this particular model is a "budget line" or not. It does look very robust & is advertised having .1 micron resolution, also similar to the Yasda.

The thing that does raise eyebrows is a machine like that being around the same price point of a Matsuura MX machine.

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Is this for production?

There's A LOT of expense to make .0005" True Position. To reiterate; climate controlled room, coolant temperature management, aggressive chip evacuation capabilities, probing, and all the control options. 

Something else to consider, you're going to need serious Applications Engineering support. 

 

If it were me, I would make the builders run a test part.

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On 11/26/2019 at 2:42 PM, mkd said:

It depends on the customer. Some might not even have a clue as to what they are asking for on a 500mm ALUMINUM part asking for .0005" true position. Unless the features are right next to each other, IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN. Look at the part wrong or breath on it and it's out of print.

 Anyways heat issues with the Matsuura line and their grease-pack spindles are well documented at this point. Construction design and materials are paramount to even get into this realm. Okuma 6300, Yasda and Mikron all have construction symmetry with a bridge type design. One of these are composite base, not iron.

 

More info about these spindle problems?  We have a few Matsuura's and are waiting on a quote for another (an H500Plus, I believe)  If you know where I can find any of that documentation, that may steer us away from the Mat and towards the Toyoda we were looking at.

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I'm partial to DMU50, or even better DMU65 and above. Pretty much all our customers in our 3 state area are using those for aerospace parts. Alum to all the way to Inconel alloys.

.0005" is tight for any equipment, so how machine deals with this will be critical. VCS Complete (Volumetric Calibration System) takes this to a next level....waaay above any 3dquickset stuff.

It's like having 3 types of alignments on the machine that the operator can run at will:

1. Mechanical measurement of straightness and squareness

2. Lasertracer

3. Laser intererometer to compensate positioning errors

Perfectly aligned machine geometry is the basis for volumetric accuracy.

 

I'd highly recommend any of the DMU MonoBlock machines.

Let me know if I can help you in any way.

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