Eason K

Matsuura or Mitsui for Aerospace CNC

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2 hours ago, JB7280 said:

More info about these spindle problems?  We have a few Matsuura's and are waiting on a quote for another (an H500Plus, I believe)  If you know where I can find any of that documentation, that may steer us away from the Mat and towards the Toyoda we were looking at.

The heat issue is what I was referring to as to being well internet-documented. Just wanted to make you aware the Matsuuras are grease pack lubricated, AFAIK. Correct me if I'm wrong. Grease pack spindle are generally rated lowest at 8000 hrs and shouldn't run more than 2 hrs of non-stop use.

 If you think toyoda is better you might be disappointed.

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On 11/26/2019 at 11:42 AM, mkd said:

... Matsuura line and their grease-pack spindles are well documented at this point.

As usual, there's A LOT more to that story... Like hack spindle rebuilds for starters, then customers going from cold spindle to 20k with no warmup, using sidelock holders at 20k... etc. Those were the lions share of events I saw.

Once you get above 18k RPM, a lot of things change and what worked at 10k, 12k, or even 15k doesn't fly at over around 18k.

 

:coffee:

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3 minutes ago, cncappsjames said:

As usual, there's A LOT more to that story... Like hack spindle rebuilds for starters, then customers going from cold spindle to 20k with no warmup, using sidelock holders at 20k... etc. Those were the lions share of events I saw.

Once you get above 18k RPM, a lot of things change and what worked at 10k, 12k, or even 15k doesn't fly at over around 18k.

 

:coffee:

Yes sir, vibration is HUGE contributor to oil evaperation, don't care what brand machine....

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Mats have been building 20k spindles since 1989 by memory...and regarding revs...forces increase with the square of the rotational speed.

If you double the revs, it's 4x times the forces playing...If you treble, it's 9x the forces playing....

As TheeCNCAppsguy says, 15k to 20k is not just a 5k jump in revs...

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5 hours ago, JB7280 said:

More info about these spindle problems?  We have a few Matsuura's and are waiting on a quote for another (an H500Plus, I believe)  If you know where I can find any of that documentation, that may steer us away from the Mat and towards the Toyoda we were looking at.

Our newest 520 has the air oil spindle. Our pc4 #2 hasn't arrived yet but we will see what it comes with.

 

Our first 520 ate a hydraulic pump and they wanted to sell us the whole motor assy and not the pump because of some efficiency thing. We just bought a pump from somewhere else.

 

520#2 hydraulic pump currently sounds like a diesel engine

 

We do run a daily warmup program

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3 hours ago, Leon82 said:

Our newest 520 has the air oil spindle.

I stand corrected.

Any perceived negativity by me towards Matsuura is purely hyperbole Ford vs Chevy.  Apparently i don't even know what i'm talking about the grease spindle specification either (where'd i get that from?). Can't edit or correct posts anymore so i'll just STFU, after saying the support you get with your machine purchase might just be more importance than spec warfare by manufacturers. If it can be done by a machine tool, a cncappsguy/Matsuura combo would be extremely tough to beat.

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18 hours ago, JB7280 said:

More info about these spindle problems?  We have a few Matsuura's and are waiting on a quote for another (an H500Plus, I believe)  If you know where I can find any of that documentation, that may steer us away from the Mat and towards the Toyoda we were looking at.

The spindle problem was just made accidentally by human operation error. The spindle was on Mitsui instead of Matsuura. :)

 

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 the manual that came with our 12k machine says warmup is not necessary.

On the oil air machine the factory warmup is 45 min for one day 55 min for more than two.

So you need the timer option if you don't want to wait for it to warm up.

 

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I'm pretty sure that Siemens and positive that Heidenhain monoblock DMUs have this built in. Good luck starting machine at high rpm.... it'll just sit there oiling and warming up the spindle and wait until all the sensors are "satisfied" 😁.

Throws some untrained operators for a fit 🤣

 

Can't knock matsuuras, never had a problem with their 20k spindle.

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Our yasdas will delay the program untill it feels it's warm enough.

Of the 2 newest mx machines we got the 15k grease had the factory timer and the 20k oil we had to wait 4 months for the timer to be installed.

 

They spin a prize wheel at the factory and whatever it lands on is what they install.

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34 minutes ago, cncappsjames said:

What's up Mark? Long time no speak!

 

:cheers:

Living the dream my friend, living the dream 👍

I was visiting your old stomping grounds in Cypress just last week :)

🍻

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59 minutes ago, Leon82 said:

They spin a prize wheel at the factory and whatever it lands on is what they install.

Now you're giving away the secret sauce.

😂🤣😂🤣😂

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On 12/2/2019 at 8:03 PM, Leon82 said:

 

520#2 hydraulic pump currently sounds like a diesel engine

 

We have a VX-1000 that sounds like the worlds loudest shop vac at 20k.  It's the first 20k spindle I've used, but it doesn't sound right to me.  Pretty sure the machine was never set up properly, for multiple reasons

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2 hours ago, JB7280 said:

We have a VX-1000 that sounds like the worlds loudest shop vac at 20k.  It's the first 20k spindle I've used, but it doesn't sound right to me.  Pretty sure the machine was never set up properly, for multiple reasons

The oil spindles are loud.

 

Our vplus1000 and the oil 520 have that ring when they are up there

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We have 2 20K Matsuura grease spindles on MX330's. Machine #1 is closing in on 18,000 hours of spindle time, #2 is close to 10,000. Machines run 24/7, the spindles are one area where we have not had any issues (knock on wood). We also have several 20K air/oil spindles....they have been solid. A few are 10+ years old without issues. (not saying that some haven't been replaced...sh!t does happen...and at 20K, it happens really fast)

We do run warm-up religiously, auto timers should be standard & not an option.

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6 hours ago, MIL-TFP-41 said:

... auto timers should be standard & not an option.

I agree. However, the powers that wish to keep the machine at a certain price point continue to do battle with us. :rofl:

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9 hours ago, MIL-TFP-41 said:

We have 2 20K Matsuura grease spindles on MX330's. Machine #1 is closing in on 18,000 hours of spindle time, #2 is close to 10,000. Machines run 24/7, the spindles are one area where we have not had any issues (knock on wood). We also have several 20K air/oil spindles....they have been solid. A few are 10+ years old without issues. (not saying that some haven't been replaced...sh!t does happen...and at 20K, it happens really fast)

We do run warm-up religiously, auto timers should be standard & not an option.

It is the real-world feedback like this, that makes this place so great. I appreciate your testimonial!

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On 11/26/2019 at 9:13 AM, Matthew Hajicek™ - Conventus said:

Those are WORLDS apart.  .002" true position you can hold on a Haas.  .0005" you need best of the best, and if you can't afford the machine to do it you can't afford to take the job.  As said before, getting the tolerance requirements as loose as possible should be the first priority, since as you're learning, tight tolerances cost money.

 

Part-Product-Dimensional-Tolerances.jpg

Its all relative, all this talk of true position and we have NO idea how the true position is being called out or over what length etc... 

Hell I had an aluminum part with .002" true position that was damn near impossible. But the part was over 4 feet long, and it was called out to Datum's on adjacent faces. Good luck doing that on a Haas. 

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On 12/3/2019 at 10:33 PM, Leon82 said:

Our yasdas will delay the program untill it feels it's warm enough.

Of the 2 newest mx machines we got the 15k grease had the factory timer and the 20k oil we had to wait 4 months for the timer to be installed.

 

They spin a prize wheel at the factory and whatever it lands on is what they install.

Totally ignorant question.  What are these timers we're all talking about?

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28 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

Totally ignorant question.  What are these timers we're all talking about?

I'm guessing spindle warm up timers to get the spindle warmed up properly .

20K spindles can be damaged if they are put to work without the proper warmup cycle

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32 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

Totally ignorant question.  What are these timers we're all talking about?

It's on the machine near the breaker. It starts the machine and will run a warm-up program of your choice

 

Also it will shut the matsuura off after an m30. Kind of weird how matsuura handles that. Even the cheap machines have auto power off.

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