Mori Seiki is the same way. There isn't a "price list" with option costs. They decide what you "need", and then they decide what they think you can afford, and quote accordingly.

The guy across the way was looking at one of those NMV small pallet 5-Axis machines from Mori awhile back. They came in and gave him a rock bottom quote and had he not been paying full attention he would have fell for their BS. Here's what they do (pay close attention here); they give you that super low price to get you interested in their machine. They tell you "it's got everything you need" then when you really look at the quote and start putting the options on it to make it a real 5-Axis machine, comparable to a Matsuura or Makino (only talking FANUC controlled machines); you know important things like Dataserver, Work Offset Expansion, Tool Offset Expansion, MACRO Variable Expansion, WSEC, Look-Ahead expansion, Post Processor, Collision Detection/Simulation Software, etc...... :rofl: was all I could muster.

AxiSet

oh, now i know what ur talking about.

nice.

800 for my probe or 7000 for a probe system. hmmmm. tough choice

Hmmm... probe is already installed and is WAY more powerful. Yeah, you're right. Tough choice.

I tend to see super high priced used haas which seems to baffle me.

They fit a certain market segment, and fit it well. That's why they've been successsful. Delivery on a new one is about 8-12 weeks out depending on the model from what the guy across the way says. That right there will drive up the price of used equipment.

I will probably get beaten up for saying this but I just bought an American made 40x20 vertical called a Mazak

I'll probably get beat up for saying this but... Mazak is the Japanese Haas.

functionally, i guess the semi-manual interapid-indicator method you guys are mentioning is pretty similar to what i would achieve except,

my method for driving ball around a ball using a curve-5axis path would give live feedback to anyone (laymen/CEO) watching this custom indicator.

having the program reverse directions will give live feedback of backlash and following error, so it is a more predictive test of actual cutting performance.

 

i guess i will design and build a batch of these. put em up for sale....any takers?

Maybe one out a thousand 5-Axis shops are willing to pay for stuff like this. MAYBE. We would, but we already have AxiSet and the indicator following the ball method for a dynamic test so your stuff would be redundant for us. Besides, we like to do stuff ourselves. We've got a talented energetic staff so they would be ofended if we bought something like this.

Yeh, I suppose torque is king. When talking engines everyone always talks in hp, but torque is where it's at.

That's why a diesel can have a paltry 350 HP yet can pull a fully loaded 53' trailer while a 500HP gas engine isn't even in the discussion.

Haas = HorsePOSER

Makino = HorsePOWER

I don't care what the brochure says, 30HP Makino > 30HP Haas without question.

X, Y, Z - A, B, C

A Rotates around X Axis

B Rotates around Y Axis

C Rotates around Z Axis

You're going to have to create planes most likely. Besides, if it's "... mill four flats on a cylinder...", you can just contour that from the top view and be done.

I'm familiar with the Matsuura stuff. We've had 'em for longer than I've been here. Just never seen the Q3 and the M251-M255 anywhere else.

...

G5.1 Q3 M251-M255 (AI-NANO)

...

Above are standard Fanuc codes and works on most controllers if the options are installed.

Never seen these before. I'll give them a shot on our Matsuura's tomorrow morning.

HSK... Going to have to find an HSK shop for that to go into. Deep taper shops don't like to venture into that. Looks like a ood machine. 3k hours. Why they getting rid of it?

Several builders Implement their own High Speed look-ahead settings. I've only ever seen G5P10000, G5.1Q1, G5.1Q1Rx (x being a number from 0 to 10), G121Rx (x being a number from 0 to 10), G131Rx (x being a number from 0 to 10), G131 Mx/Fx/Px (x being a number between 1 and 3). Niall the cases I've seen, the higher the number, the higher the preference for precision.

I'm not going to say there is not a Q value other than 1, but I will say I have not seen it.

Federate leveling through CAMplete.

What the Haas proponents that have never used or run higher end equipment don't understand is there is a reason Kitamura, Matsuura, Makino, and Yasda cost so much. They are worth it! Precision, accuracy, repeatability, and horsepower only tell part of the story. I guess you have to own one to get it.

We've got Renishaw's AxiSet Software, but before then, we just used to load up an Interrapid in a long reach ER16 Holder and do just what Jeremy said. We'd do everything in feed moves so we could watch everything.

I like the Renishaw stuff better. It makes it easy to check things out, plus, I can get a printout of the error.

Jeremy, I give it 12 months max before you show up to do a turnkey/training/implementation/whatever at a shop, and they make you a job offer that's too absurdly good to refuse. 12 months.

Our local Matsuura AE (used to run around in here) is like that. We've made him a few offers in excess of $125k salary for 40~50 hours and he still politely declines to even think about it. He tells us he loves where he works and wouldn't dream of leaving. Sometimes I guess it's about more than the money.

Now, the kinematics on our machines (Matauura MAM72's) are Table/Table so we just use WSEC and nothing else.

Every machine has it's performance sweet spot. That Makino is going to do well using old school bury the f*** out of the cutter whereas the Haas... not so much. Anybody that expected the Haas to perform well in this experiment I just have to laugh. Ther's a reason that Makino costs more and it's not just because it's Japanese. I used to have a debate with some of the old guys around here, they wanted their old school slow high horsepower box way machines and I wanted to utilize newer linear guide technology when we were making the transition to new equipment. Well, at the end of the horse race, HST removed more cubes than Old School bury the cutter did. Not only was HST literally faster, tool life shot way up after the transition.

Now, before you jump my s***, I'm not trying to make the argument that the Haas is as good as the Makino. I'm just saying each machine has it's own performance characteristics and you have to treat each machine different to get the most out of each one.

True, BUT you have to have the right customers I think.

Most of the customers over here really don't care (or understand) what machine it's made on. They just want cheaper prices.

But when you can do a part in 1 setup or 2 max, that lowers the cost without even trying. Using common tooling and common workholding between jobs and it's called zero setup. If you can't make money on a job approaching things that way, not sure what to say. Lange vises and that crimper they sell just kills it.

Not once this year.

Seems pretty high. I would hope that would include taxes, freight rigging, installation, etc....

Thanks though.

Any idea what the machine goes for? I asked the AE that was here last week and he didn't know. We're looking at adding a single pallet 5-Axis around mid-year to replace an early 2000's VMC with a bolt on Trunion.

FOCAS, does nothing for you until you want the machine to communicate with something externally. Our machine monitoring software uses it. On all of our machines it was standard.

Not familiar with MC4SW. Both configs are he same even?

Just something I would do seeing this; double and triple check the Config on the offending computer, then the Control Def.

This is our usual starter for setting up WSEC on our MAM72's;

%

O7777(BLOCK CHECK & WSEC UPDATE)

(SET G59)

#5321=-14.966

#5322=-17.665

#5323=-17.635

#5324=0

#5325=0

G0G90G59

(PROGRAM USES G54 PART LOCATED AT CENTER OF ROTATION)

T1M6

#181=0 (X SHIFT FROM CENTER OF ROT)

#182=0 (Y SHIFT FROM CENTER OF ROT)

#191=17. (SET X STOCK SIZE)

#192=3.25 (SET Y STOCK SIZE)

#193=6. (SET Z STOCK SIZE)

#159=.05 (X POS. TOLERANCE)

#160=.01 (Y POS. TOLERANCE)

#161=.125 (X + TOLERANCE)

#162=.125 (Y + TOLERANCE)

#163=.125 (Z + TOLERANCE)

#171=0 (X - TOLERANCE)

#172=0 (Y - TOLERANCE)

#173=0 (Z - TOLERANCE)

(H FOR SIZE TOL)

(M FOR TRUE POS TOL)

G43H#517Z12.75

G65P9832(PROBE ON)

G65P9810X#181Y#182F200. (X Y SAFETY MOVE TO APROX BLOCK CENTER)

G65P9810Z[1.+#193]F200. (Z SAFETY MOVE 1 INCH APPROX ABOVE BLOCK)

(Z MEASURE WITH Z TOLERANCE CHECK BELOW)

G65P9811Z[#193]

IF[#142GE#163]GOTO3003

IF[#142LE#173]GOTO3013

#157=#142(Z POSITION ERROR)

(X MEASURE AT Z-.5 POSITION WITH TOLERANCE CHECK IN X SIZE & POS BELOW)

G65P9812X#191Z[#193-.5]

IF[#143GE#161]GOTO3001

IF[#143LE#171]GOTO3011

IF[#140GE#159]GOTO3021

#155=#140(X POSITION ERROR)

(Y MEASURE AT Z-.5 POSITION WITH TOLERANCE CHECK IN X SIZE & POS BELOW)

G65P9812Y#192Z[#193-.5]

IF[#143GE#162]GOTO3002

IF[#143LE#172]GOTO3012

IF[#141GE#160]GOTO3022

#156=#141(Y POSITION ERROR)

(-)

(UPDATE WSEC)

IF[ABS[#155]GT.054]GOTO155

#26010=#155(X ERROR TO WSEC OFFSET 1)

N155

IF[ABS[#156]GT.054]GOTO156

#26011=#156(Y ERROR TO WSEC OFFSET 1)

N156

IF[ABS[#157]GT.054]GOTO157

#26012=#157(Z ERROR TO WSEC OFFSET 1)

N157

(-)

(-)

G65P9833(PROBE OFF)

(-)

G53Z0

G49

G90

M99

N3001(X + ALARM)

(-)

G65P9833(PROBE OFF)

(-)

G28G91Z0

#3000=11(X OVERSIZE)

N3011(X - ALARM)

(-)

G65P9833(PROBE OFF)

(-)

G28G91Z0

#3000=12(X UNDERSIZE)

N3021(X - ALARM)

(-)

G65P9833(PROBE OFF)

(-)

G28G91Z0

#3000=13(X OUT OF POSITION)

N3002(Y + ALARM)

(-)

G65P9833(PROBE OFF)

(-)

G28G91Z0

#3000=21(Y OVERSIZE)

N3012(Y - ALARM)

(-)

G65P9833(PROBE OFF)

(-)

G28G91Z0

#3000=22(Y UNDERSIZE)

N3022(Y - ALARM)

(-)

G65P9833(PROBE OFF)

(-)

G28G91Z0

#3000=23(Y OUT OF POSITION)

N3003(Z + ALARM)

(-)

G65P9833(PROBE OFF)

(-)

G28G91Z0

#3000=31(Z OVERSIZE)

N3013(Z - ALARM)

(-)

G65P9833(PROBE OFF)

(-)

G28G91Z0

#3000=32(Z UNDERSIZE)

%

Hope you can get something useful from this.

I remember reading something here about this a while back...

How many charachters is the path PLUS the file name? Not allowed to go over 256. Not an MC thing, it's a Windoze thing.