Choosing Machines for a Training Environment

[L Hanft]

I am setting up a machining laboratory in a new building. All on paper for now, but gifts from past students and industry make this a once in a lifetime opportunity. I will have a reasonably large sum of money to purchase equipment and I want to make the best choices possible. I am considering some Haas super mini-mills, cnc knee-mills, a 3+ axis router, and a smaler cnc lathe. I do have some space constraints and the original plan called for 6 (ea.) desk-top mills and lathes. That plan has given way to providing equipment that is closer to an "insdustry standard". We plan to introduce engineering students first to manual operations and then cnc. What would you recommend and why? I am trying to plan ahead, but no little about potential controller and machine problems. Any suggestions?

[gstephens]

Just make ABSOLUTELY sure that the controllers on ALL of the machines are at least Fanuc similar. You don't want to have to teach 3 different programming languages. For CNC knee mills I'd stick with the Haas tool room mill. Most others will come with some kind of retrofit (Boss, Dynapath, Prototrak) control that is usually a little different to program. Be especially careful with routers. Many have custom controls that are all but impossible to program offline (with Mastercam or the like) and often the X-Y slides are rotated from most other machines.

[chad fisher]

I would have to agree w/ gstephens on haas mills.

After working in some different local job shops it

seems everyone is starting to lean to the haas's

We have 3 of the regular haas mini mills, there great except that they lack in horsepower. So i would recomend that you get atleast one of the larger haas's with a gearhead "vf-2" or so. That way you will be able to do roughing techniques with the various inserted carbide tooling for steel. As for the lathes it seems that the okuma's

and hardinge lathes are pretty popular. The programming for all of these machines are ALMOST similar, meaning that they use basic g codes to run them. Plus i would have to say in thirty years

i think these manufactures will still be around to service these machines! I hoped this helped and good luck..............Thanks, Chad fisher

[camguy]

up here in canada, Canadian Machinery and Metalworking magazine runs a cnc census once a year. some statistics from 2000:

Leading sales-all machines

Daewoo 11.1 %

Mazak 11.1 %

Haas 10.6 %

Okuma 8.8 %

Matsura 7.1 %

Fadal 3.4 %

Mori Seiki 2.6 %

Country of origin

Japan 47.1 %

U.S. 33.7 %

There is probably a trade magazine in your neck of the woods that runs a similar type of survey. if nothing else it will give you an idea of which machines industry is buying.

As far as controls go, Fanuc is probably the most common. I recomend that you keep the controls simple, save some money and forget the bells and whistles. A lot of features on controls are too different from model to model as well as brand to brand. you are going to be teaching only the basics anyway, set-up, program loading, editing, etc. just my .02

i just realised my opening line was wrong, ames,iowa is at the exact same latitude ( 42 deg. 2 min. )as my home, kingsville, ontario, which is the most southern land point in canada.

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: camguy ]

[Keith Graydon]

Hi Larry,

This does indeed sound like a once in a lifetime project. The posts above mine sound like good advice as those guys are allways to the point and helpfull.

I will ask you this. Will you be teaching Machine Shop 101 along with or as a prerequisit to entry into the CNC Lab?

Years ago I worked At Princeton University and my shop was adjacent to the student shop. It didn't have any CNC machines in it. They learned quite a bit there and I would have loved to take over that shop had i continued to work there.

They do have a couple of Bridgeport cnc'c at the Engineering Quadrangle there.

good luck, have fun

my .02

-KLG

[Finecut]

We are in the process of buying our first production lathe. After doing all the legwork I have found a big range of prices for a simular equiped lathe. Ive looked at Haas, Hardage, Romi, and Mazak .Price was to be kept around $72,000

The Romi and Hardage come with Funac 21i

Mazak is the fusion 640

Haas is Haas

Options are Bar Feeder, Full edit in the control including background. Chip removal,parts catcher(we do small parts ),tailstock (this keeps the engineers happy for those semi long parts)

The Haas and Hardiage are real close

Romi is a little higher

Mazak was real high, and without the barfeeder. Name means a lot here

The size of machine was equal with the Haas SL10

Being we are on the forum I will refrain from quotes. But for cost and service I would take the machine in this order

Haas

Hardage

Romi

Mazak

You can email me If you would want more info

Finecut

[lovell110]

Hi All,

Im afraid I have to disagree with the posts above me. Gstephens says to make all the machines similar in controls. I have to differ in that idea. I would want to offer my students and future machinists in the world the largest variety possible to make them the most desirable applicants to future employers. Versitility is what I look for when it comes to hiring people.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I would agree with gstephens because of a few reasons. 1) If you learn Fanuc you can pretty much learn anything but if you learn say OSP (Okuma) or Mazatrol (Mazak) first you're pretty much close minded to offline programming and worthless after that. In my experience with people that are hardcore conversational programmers take them away from their control and they are pretty much worthless. 2) There are plenty of Fanuc similar controls out there that are different enough to make an individual well rounded but similar enough to make it interesting. Controls include but not limited to Yasnac, Haas, Mitsubishi and Type 2 Fadal. 3) It makes it easy to get Post Processors and get Post Processor support. I'll speak for the Southern California area, the Educational Dealer here is no tech support powerhouse and leave it at that. 4) Fanuc currently holds at least 60% of the control market. The last Westec, Fanuc did a survey and the share was closer to 70%.

JM2C

[mcrae_andrew]

Larry,

Sounds like a fun project, It is always easier to spend someone elses money. The choice of a control variety to offer is not what you want to get into. The similarity of each control manufacturer is the key. A basic Fanuc Compatible is your best bet as I have worked with a mess of different ones over the last ten years and each have their niche for specifics. The one common thing between all is that "G-Code is G-Code", and it is portable across all machines that adopt the standard. While the Mazak guys are writing programs on their controls, We are making parts and earning our keep. Industry demands productivity. If you want to dream and offer the latest and greatest - sign up for STEP or similar and watch the other schools train students that will be usefull!

The goal of an education program shouldn't be the application of the latest technology, but rather the indoctrination of problem solving and how to find solutions using the scientific method. Otherwise your end result is a bunch of hammer mechanics that can only push buttons.

Andrew McRae

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Good points Andrew.