When will M/C offer their MATTS software????

Is it going to take as long as X took???

Does X offer full simulation, syncronization, pinch turning, just to name a few for Mill/Turn's , or is still "cut and paste" and dry run out at the machine for simulation?

Another area where "plunge milling" shines has to do with "workholding". Because plunge milling puts pressure forward vs sideways, certain parts and fixtures lend themselves to this type of metal removal vs. traditional milling. If you have a part in a vise that you can't hold on much, where traditional milling might "rip the part out" by pushing sideways, plunge milling actually pushes the part down.

Another area where "plunge milling" shines is deep cavaties where traditional mills may have problems being extended so far out. Everyone knows what it sounds like having to mill using extended "gage lengths".

We mill deep cavaties in aluminum, and use plunge milling extensively. Most people think of using plunge milling in steel applications for molds or such, however with the correct cutter and inserts, plunge milling works equally as well for non-ferrous materials.

Our Nakamura is a 9 axis machine:

http://www.nakamura-tome.co.jp/English/Eng...g/bEng/NTJa.htm

and they do make 11 axis as well:

http://www.nakamura-tome.co.jp/English/Eng...g/bEng/NTXa.htm

In fact, alot of manufacturer's have them. Mori and Mazak offer them as well. These are NOT screw machines, and are Mill/Turn machines. You are going to see these alot more in the future, and I'd bet Haas will offer something along these lines within a couple of years. The CAM companies have finally started to "catch up" with these machines, and once they do, everyone will be manufacturing using them. Especially if you have multi-sided parts that currently require 2 or more operations to complete. We have one part that use to require 2 separate turning operations, and up to 5 separate milling operations coming off this machine complete. The material is bar fed automatically on the left spindle, and than machined, transferred over to the right spindle and machined, and than automatically picked up and dropped onto a conveyor outside the machine where it is dropped into a container complete. It really is amazing to watch.

I've got a bunch of pic's if anyone cares to see it in action.

I have HAAS equipment, however if your going to be milling aluminum and copper, I'd take advantage of the Fadal's higher RPM and the HS Milling, especially if you are going to be surfacing. That's where you will really see the difference with the HS Milling. The added Z axis travel is also a bonus. Personally if I was buying, I would buy a Daewoo, Kia, or Hyundai over either of them. I'm sorry but I've had so much better accuracy, and "UP TIME" with my foreign made machines than any of my Haas's. I've been through more parts and have had so many "stupid" break downs on my Haas that I will never buy one again.

I have 3 seats of Esprit 2005, one for basic 2D milling, one for advanced 3D milling, and one seat for our Nakamura Tome Super NTJ 9 axis mill/turn machine. I purchased Esprit within a year of purchasing four seats of Mastercam. I was promised Mastercam would have their MATTS software available to run the mill/turn machine, however as everyone knows, shortly afterwards, Mastercam dropped, or shelved the program. I did not want to use several different CAM systems in my shop, so we stopped using Mastercam, and switched over to Esprit. Before doing so, we tried GIBBS and Edgecam for several months each, as well as paying for training in order to be able to make an intelligent decision.

Well, as with all CAM software, there are the "goods and the bads". I won't bore everyone with a two or three page post, so I won't go into detail on each item, rather I'll just list them. If anyone needs more information, feel free to email me with any questions. I'll be happy to reply to your email.

"GOODS":

1)The interface is the best we've seen.

2)Editing posts is very easy and depending upon the changes, can be done quickly.

3)Simulation is very good to excellent for most machines, however the mill/turn machine simulation ranges from non-existent(for our Nakamura) to excellent(Mazak's/Mori's).

4)Tech Support is direct to Esprit--NOT through a reseller. We found this to be alot more accurate than when we used Mastercam and had to deal with a reseller.

5)If your familiar with VBA, Esprit is very easy to create custom cycles using VBA.

6)Esprit is extremely user defined. In other words, the user has great control as to how he or she would like to set up the interface, or program. We found GIBBS to be the most limited in this area.

7)Esprit is stable for the most part with "crashing" only happening during complex surfacing.

"BADS":

1)Maintenance fees are a bit high, and the fact that new releases are not issued yearly, AND ESPRIT does not issue service packs to fix bugs, makes paying for maintenance seem expensive.

2)When a new release is issued, if there's a bug, your stuck until the next release, and sometimes even several releases.

3)Esprit added a new Solidworks feature in their 2005 release. Basically you should be able to go directly from Solidworks into Esprit, and Esprit would recognize the part features. If you make a change to a part in Solidworks, you should be able to open the part in Esprit and update the toolpath(obviously it depends upon the degree of change). This never worked, and from what I hear, it still doesn't work in the new 2006 release coming out in a few weeks. This is a MAJOR problem. See next item.

4)Making changes or updates to a part, is the absolute worst we've seen in any CAM system. You are forced to place the new model over the old model, and than go about making the toolpath changes. The reason this is such a problem in Esprit compared to other CAM systems is that toolpath is created from features or chains that you have to create on the solid model(for all 2D milling and turning). In other CAM systems, toolpath is created directly from the solid model. For example, in Esprit, you must create a chain feature for every, hole, pocket, OD, etc.. So if you have a part with say 5-1.00 holes, you must create a chain for each hole. Now lets say the model changes, and the holes are now 5-.950 holes. In most CAM systems, you would just bring the new model in, and hit a button to update the toolpath. Not in Esprit. You now have to bring the new model in, orient it correctly, and than create a new feature or chain around all 5 new holes. Than you have to go back and delete the old features and toolpath.

This is a very basic example. But think how cumbersome and difficult this is if you have a part that has to keep being tested and updated, or if the part has major changes. For alot of parts, you would find it's quicker in Esprit to start completely over again, rather than trying to bring the new model in and making updates to the toolpath.

5)Open pocket toolpath's take alot of time to create, and are NOT efficient.

6)Even though Esprit is a CAM system, it is terrible to "draw, or design" in. Even the most basic things you might want to draw, are either impossible, or would take a long time compared to most other CAM systems.

7)The mill/turn package is very difficult to learn, and takes a very, very long time to become proficient. Both GIBBS and Edgecam are much easier and quicker to learn.

8)No "Plunge Mill" cycles.

9)Esprit advertises 5-axis toolpaths, however it is extremly limited. In fact their own tech guys call it "five axis light". If you do any five axis milling, or mill/turning, don't even think about Esprit.

10)Esprit offers absolutely NO set-up sheets what so ever.

These are just a few of each of the "goods and bads" we've encountered using Esprit. Because we are not a job shop where we work from prints, or are supplied solid models, we are constantly striving to improve our CAD/CAM solutions. We design and manufacture our own parts and assemblies, and are constantly making updates to our parts as the months/years go by trying to improve them. We are starting to add 5 axis parts to our inventory and therefore are in the market again. We recently began looking at UG NX4, and have demo'd it for a few weeks. From what we've experienced so far, UG looks to be the best all around solution for our needs. Because UG is a complete CAD/CAM system with the ability to constantly update our models and toolpath without any loss of data through translations, we are probably going to move in this direction. Because UG simulates directly from the NC code, it is more accurate than any other simulation available in any CAM system. What you see is exactly what you get.

If anyone has any questions on anything I posted above, please email me, and I will get back to you ASAP.

If you can spend a few dollars more, go with Makino. There's a reason why they cost a bit more, they give you more. You'll never find a person who's run a Makino and has anything bad to say. They build machine's with performance in mind, and they don't cut corners to save a few bucks. You won't find a machine with better "chip evacuation" than Makino's, and you'll need this for all the chips you'll be producing 24/7.

As for HSK, I agree--it is a far superior system than regular BT or CAT, and is a step above "Big Plus". There are only two slight drawbacks of HSK, both of which have to do with HSK's short taper. You are limited in tool length that can be inserted in the holder, and if you use very long tools, the short taper length isn't as good as "Big Plus". These are only two minor issues, and for 90% of the jobs out there, HSK is king.

Thanks guys for taking YOUR time to post. I appreciate it. I have appox. 3-4 months till I should make a decision as to which software I will purchase.

Buckethead: Have you used any other design software such as Solidworks or Solidedge? I realize M/C solids is very easy to learn, however it is very limited.(I'm not putting M/C solids down. It just isn't the same as Solidworks, etc.., nor has it ever been represented, sold, or distributed as such. It is a great little package for simple tasks, and does exactly what it was designed to do for the few dollars it costs.)

Ritmo: Have you been using the new version of Catia or the old version? I looked at the older version (which of course is still available for sale), however it looks extremely difficult to learn quickly, and the interface looks 100 years old(LOL).

When we spent the half day at IMTS with the Rand guys(reseller of Catia), they started by answering my first question like this:

How difficult is Catia to learn and use? "this new version is easier to learn than any other CAM package here in this room".

When we heard this, we decided to have him show us exactly what he was stating, and I must say after spending 4+ hours with him, I must say we were very impressed. We even had him "mock" build(not to each and every tolerance, just round numbers) one of our parts we brought with us from scratch to see exactly how he/we would design and program it, and it looked extremely efficient.

While out at IMTS two weeks ago, we spent alot of time looking at all the CAD/CAM, design, and reverse engineering software, and everyone from our shop was real impressed with both these companies new versions of their respective software. We never really looked into either of these products as we had always heard about how difficult and costly they were. We currently have 4 seat's of Mastercam, Esprit, and Smartcam(1 seat), however we are looking at starting to do some complex 5 axis work within the next year, and really need a product that can provide design, CAM, and simulation/verification. After spending approx. 4 hours with each of these companies rep.'s, I believe we are going to purchase a seat soon. Does anyone here have any experience using either? I thank you in advance for any response you may be able to afford.

Lou, I ran into the same problem you have with CIMCO edit. I have four seats of M/C and four seats of Esprit on my network. I have one seat of CIMCO, and was told I would have to purchase additional seats to "float" them on my network. I really only need two seats, but I need them to be able to float and not individual keys on 2 specific workstations.

"The great thing about this type of system is you can leave more dedicated fixturing on the machine which cuts set up time way down."

That's one of the very best asset's of the cell. A machine, in theory, making chips is making money. Everyone knows when the spindle is stopped during set-up's, the machine is not making chips and thus not making money. If you are running stand alone machines, VMC's or HMC's, and have alot of change over's, the machine can be down for a significant period each day, week, and month of a year. If you have your cell properly set-up, you could be making chips 60 minutes an hour of every day of every year(minus tool changes, of course). Depending upon the applications, the cost of a cell could pay for itself in less than a year.

Rich, I looked at the Mori ZT2500 when I was looking at my first Nakamura. It is a very large rigid machine with plenty of room for tooling. The turrets are plenty stout. It isn't cheap though. You'll spend a ton more than the Daewoo. I believe you'll be around 375K-425K when your all tooled up.

As for the CAPTO system. I believe it to be a far superior system compared to KM. Sandvik's tapered polygon system is extremely rigid, and has excellent repeatability. I spent alot of time investigating both, as well as speaking with alot of end users. Your response concering KM is exactly what I heard from several other KM users. In fact, even a major machine tool builder stated similar problems with KM's repeatability and rigidity, and went on to say that they no longer offer their machines with KM's quick change system---only Sandvik CAPTO's. That was enough for me. I purchased CAPTO, and am sold for life. I won't buy a machine that can't be CAPTO adapted. My guys love how quick they can change the twin turrets tooling setup's. On the live tools we utilize Alberti HSK-40A quick change system for ultimate efficiency. Everything gets preset off line on our Zoller Redomatic presetter, than "carted" and wheeled over. The tool offset's and program's are uploaded via CIMCO's wireless DNC system, and in a matter of minutes, the new job's running.

Please let me know what machine tool you purchase. I'll let you know which way I go.

Jspangler---What type of "Cell" are you looking for: Horizontal machining center's, or a "Cell" consisting of several different machines, for example milling, turning, grinding, etc..?

I, too, own my own business, and manufacture my own products. I started with Haas vertical's and recently purchased a Makino A66E with a two tier, 8 pallet, linear cell. I can expand it up to 12 machine's and over 200 pallets if need be(wishful thinking), or just add more pallets, or another machine. There is another option called a "pallet pool" whereby, a single machine is involved with anywhere from 4 pallets up to perhaps 36. These are generally less expensive as they don't require an expensive "cell controller".

At my business, we run 100's of different parts in quantities ranging from several hundred to several thousand. For me, I required "flexibility". I had to have fixtures that would be able to run all my parts, be fast to change over, and be able to be brought online from my vertical's quickly. After speaking with experts from so many manufacturer's, the conclusion was that 8 station vise towers were the way to go. I purchased 8 Toolex/TECO 8" , 8 station towers. They have quick change parallel sets that can hold parts as deep as 2.000's or as little as .100. They can be snapped on and off with the twist of a screwdriver, and have .0002 repeatability. They also have aluminum or steel soft jaws that twist on and off the same way, as well as full "carvable aluminum or steel" jaws. The towers also accept a large fixture plate (10.000 wide x 30.000 tall per side) that you machine anyway you require, and can be snapped on or off almost as easily.

With the cell controller, I can schedule any part I need, and keep the spindle making chips on current jobs. As soon as the tower is set correctly for the new part/s, the controller send's the job in. For my shop and my guys, the cell was the best purchase I've made. The flexibility and the ability to run "JIT" jobs is unsurpassed. I can run 20 different jobs with various operations at the same time, and the cell controller keeps track of everything. The operator's just do what the screen tell's them: flip part's over, load new parts, etc..

On another note, compared to just a few years ago, the price for the cell's have dropped tremendously. They are affordable to small shops now. The one cost that hasn't and won't come down though, are the fixture's. At 25K a tower, I spent over 200k on fixturing alone.

Depending upon your needs, a cell could be the best way to go. I wanted to pick up a 3rd shift every night, as well as on weekends. I pay one guy $100.00 to come in for an hour on Saturday to load the towers, and I get anywhere from 2-12 hours of machining. I also have problems finding employees, so if I had purchased 3 vertical's instead, I would be stuck trying to put "bodies" in front of them. These are just a few things to consider.

If you would like to discuss it further, drop me an email, and I'll give you my number, or if you close to NJ you can stop by.

Rich, I've just spent some considerable time looking at several Y axis turning centers as I'm in the market for another. My first was a Nakamura Super NTJ which has Y axis(along with rotating . I've just looked at all the Daewoo's mentioned above, as well as more Nakamura's, Mori's, Doosan, and Eurotek. This is my opinion. If price isn't a consideration--Mori and Nakamura make beautiful machine's and are priced about the same. I would buy either of these two first. The Eurotek is less than both Mori and Nak', and comes packed with almost every option standard. It also comes with the largest "bar capacity" for each size machine. Something you should consider if you plan on bar loading. The companies I went to and spoke with who own Eurotek's, loved them. They both had over 20 machines running medical parts. As for the Daewoo, it is a very good, well priced machine. Although the Y axis machine's are fairly new to this company (when compared with the above brands), they build a solid machine. It's not the fastest, but for the money, it can't be beat. I, in fact, am probably going with the 2500Y. The parts I plan on running are coming off a Hyundai turning center, and I can't see spending all the extra money for the Nak or Mori(unless a deal falls my way real soon). I considered the Eurotek, but am leaning more towards the Daewoo. The machines in stock, has everything I need, and the ability to incorporate CAPTO quick change tooling, which is a must for me. The Eurotek's turret cannot.

Please let me know what machine you end up buying, and I'll reciprocate. Good Luck!!!

SLJ, I looked at Esprit a couple of years ago at Eastec, and wasn't all that impressed. It's one of the reasons I didn't really look hard at it back in November. It was only when "push came to shove" the last few weeks when I was close to having this machine removed that I actually took the time to seriously look at it, and I'm Damn glad I did. It has passed every test on this machine so far, and the "windows" based software makes it really quick to pick up.

As for "vaporware", I have had both my local resellers refer to this term on several occasions, and they weren't happy about it.

Oh your real funny!!! Mr. "get me some software to run this Damn machine". (LOL)

When I purchased my M/C software back in February /03, I was told by my dealer the MATTS software would be available by the beginning of '04, and if I purchased it before it was released, it would cost approx. $5000.00 vs. $7500.00 after its release. I knew I would be purchasing a multi-tasking machine by years end, and a screw machine shortly after, so I was counting on M/C having this software available. When I was at Eastec I heard all the "raves" concerning the MATTS software. In fact, the M/C newsletter was touting their progress on the MATTS program, and all the work they were doing with two shops developing this software-one in CT, and the other in MA. I placed my order for this Nakamura the third week of June '03.

I must say I was highly disappointed when in late '03 M/C announced they "had made a company decision to drop the MATTS program, or put it on hold". I called and voiced my disappointment with M/C and was told that "M/C decided to concentrate all their efforts into version X, and that MATTS would have been released in the older version of software, and than would've had to been redone in the Window's based version X. The sceduled release for version X was fall '04, and that MATTS would not be available until AT LEAST a year later minimum." I than followed up with how misleading it appeared the entire MATTS program was publicised, and was than told "that's the software business". Needless to say, I was very disappointed.

As you can imangine, the first question everyone always ask's me is: "Why did you buy a machine without software to program it?" My response is "I was counting on MATTS".

[ 04-19-2004, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: DrewG ]

Millman, you can come on up and play over the holidays. I hope that will be the only time in the future that this machine won't be running(LOL). This last four month's have been the most stressful of my life-bar none. The worst part about the whole experience was the constant "ups and downs" as every new CAM rep. came to the shop. They would all state "I'll get this thing making parts within a couple of days". I would get so stoked thinking we were finally on to something, and than within a few days or weeks, it would be the same old story--problem after problem. The Rep's would all call it quits, and leave with their head hanging down, and my wallet considerably lighter. I even had several very good 8 axis Mori programmers come in and give it a try, only to give up after a few days, realizing it was going to take a very long time to get anything running without a good post.

I will give you an update in a couple of weeks to let you know if Esprit CAN run this machine. So far, so good, they haven't been stumped yet. We'll see.

Well after spending the last few months trying to program our new Nakamura Super NTJ multi-tasking mill/turn machine and being fully frustrated, we have finally chosen DP's Technology's Esprit Software. We were counting on using M/C's "MATTS" software until they made the company decision to "drop the program" late last year. Since the machine hit our floor in January, we have had four different CAM companies in to try and get this machine to run using their software. Every one of them stated "we can run that machine", and than after spending anywhere from 1-3 weeks on our floor, they all came up empty. It has been so damn frustrating!!! With over 100 different parts planned for this machine, we had to find a CAM system that would be able to run this machine without "pasting and editing" on the control. The CAM system also needed to support "pinch turning", syncronization, and verification.

The dealer spent 6 weeks programming on the control just to get one single part running, and even then the program wasted alot of time, and was very inefficient. This machine has unbelievable capabilities, but if it takes weeks to get a program running, what good is it?

It finally got to the point that I stopped making payments on the machine and told the dealer to "come pick it up".

I decided to call Esprit to see if they might have anything to offer for this machine(they stated back in late November they did not have a post) and was surprised to find out they were 98% done with a post. Evidently a shop in AZ purchased two of these machine's and Esprit was writing a post for them. I had them send down a few files to test, and to everyone's amazement, everything worked perfectly. A consultant from Esprit came down this week to show us their software, and to run one of our programs on our machine. It worked. So we just purchased their software and have the training scheduled in-house over the next two weeks.

I'm not slamming M/C or stating that I like Esprit better(I can't make that comparison without having worked on Esprit). I just wanted to let everyone know that software to run these Mill/Turn machines is extremely limited, and very much behind the capabilities of these machines. It seems that the CAM companies as well as the manufacturer's of these machine are having a hell of a time writing software to run these machines to their fullest. In fact Mori Seiki(who owns their own software company in California) just made the decision to endorse Esprit to run their new MT machines. The manufacturer's are realizing that they aren't going to be able to sell their machines if there is no way to program them.

It also appears that their aren't too many programmers out there who have experience programming these machine. I had two job positions listed on M/C's website for several months--the first for horizontal machining center programmers, and the second for the multitasking machine. I had over 100 responses. Only one was for the multitasking position.

[ 04-17-2004, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: DrewG ]

I'm currently looking for one or two CNC programmer/s to run our Makino A66E Horizontal machine and pallet cell, or Nakamura Tome Super NTJ multitasking machine. Applicant/s must be extremely Mastercam knowledgable with Solidworks backround a plus. Top pay for the right person/s. We manufacture motorcycle components for both the racing and aftermarket. Immediate openings for very experienced individuals only. Shop is extremely clean and neat, and utilizes the latest equipment to produce the best products. Please drop me an email at [email protected] with any questions or comments. We are located in central New Jersey, 2 miles from the beach, one hour south of Manhatten. Thankyou !!!!

I'm currently looking for one or two CNC programmer/s to run our Makino A66E Horizontal machine and pallet cell, or Nakamura Tome Super NTJ multitasking machine. Applicant/s must be extremely Mastercam knowledgable with Solidworks backround a plus. Top pay for the right person/s. We manufacture motorcycle components for both the racing and aftermarket. Immediate openings for very experienced individuals only. Shop is extremely clean and neat, and utilizes the latest equipment to produce the best products. Please drop me an email at [email protected] with any questions or comments. We are located in central New Jersey, 2 miles from the beach, one hour south of Manhatten. Thankyou !!!!

Millman, did you have the pleasure of dealing with Bill Citron of Corporate Mazak? I did. Only it wasn't pleasurable. It was a "tug of war" relationship.

Budgie, that NTX is one awesome machine. Talk about serious "MOJO", twin spindles, two lower turrets, and a B axis rotating, Capto C6 or KM63, upper tool spindle up top. That's a serious multi-tasking machine for the ultimate cycle times. 11 axis (5 + 4 + 2 axis), 48 turning tols/24 driven live tools, and 24-120 Capto/KM) tools. 2.500 or 2.795 bar capacity, swing capacity of 25.40, turning diameter of 17.32, and turning length of 43.31, weighing in at a hefty 46,200lbs.

Boy your going to have fun with that. I just hope you can get the right software to run it. What are your plans for software?

I think I see Jimbob or Jason behind it. No it's Johnboy.

Couldn't resist, it looks straight out the Walton's. Real good condition. I like it!!!!!

Chris--what problems are you experiencing? If you don't want to post, I understand.

I don't understand this hidden "Maziac" guy. What's that about?

In all fairness to Mazak machines, I have heard great thing as well. I know several guys with Mazak turning centers that swear by them. The only negative problems I hear about pertain to their new models. It does appear they don't do enough real world testing before they put a new machine into production. I also had a major problem with their customer service once they had my deposit.

I'm also leary about the QC when a company manfactures almost every peice of metal manufacturing equipment made under the sun. In most cases just because a company is the largest, doesn't mean it produces the best quality products. It does usually mean they find the cheapest way to produce their product's, and have the ability to market their products better than their smaller competition. Just my opionion.

Andrew--Glad to hear about the Zoller company. I too, have had nothing but great customer service from everyone associated with Zoller. I went up to their show room in Ann Arbor, MI back in May, and was treated to some wonderful demenstrations. I have met and spoken with both Christoph Zoller, and his younger brother Alec. In fact, when I was up ther Christoph took myself and my programmer out for one of THE best steak's I've ever had at a place called "The Chophouse" inside Ann Arbor.

I can't wait to start utilizing their presetter's.