Zoller Presetter/Database

[NoobiusMaximus]

I've searched the forums but I didn't find a whole lot of recent information on the topic. 

We have a Zoller presetter and by the looks of it we should be able to build a database that can interface with mastercam for tool libraries. Workflow would look something like build tool in Zoller, then import into mcam. The tool guy would have to hit a specified tolerance when setting stickouts and such on the tool when it's built. We haven't upgraded software packages from Zoller yet because we want to make sure it will meet all our needs before we spend the extra $$ on the bronze software package. 

It feels like the company was a little too eager to throw money at our tooling issue right away without full research and planning, but the shop culture is right to get the tooling monster tackled properly.

For the guys who run Zoller stuff, how do you handle a tooling database? 

Does the Zoller tooling information handle feeds and speeds as well as the geometry?

The end goal is to have a single database that houses all the tooling info including location, geometry, default feeds and speeds, coolant info, etc. Ideally, that database would talk to Mcam and our matrix toolcrib so programmers are all working off the same data, and it'll pop drawers in the tool crib for our tooling guy.

 

[JB7280]

17 minutes ago, NoobiusMaximus said:

I've searched the forums but I didn't find a whole lot of recent information on the topic. 

We have a Zoller presetter and by the looks of it we should be able to build a database that can interface with mastercam for tool libraries. Workflow would look something like build tool in Zoller, then import into mcam. The tool guy would have to hit a specified tolerance when setting stickouts and such on the tool when it's built. We haven't upgraded software packages from Zoller yet because we want to make sure it will meet all our needs before we spend the extra $$ on the bronze software package. 

It feels like the company was a little too eager to throw money at our tooling issue right away without full research and planning, but the shop culture is right to get the tooling monster tackled properly.

For the guys who run Zoller stuff, how do you handle a tooling database? 

Does the Zoller tooling information handle feeds and speeds as well as the geometry?

The end goal is to have a single database that houses all the tooling info including location, geometry, default feeds and speeds, coolant info, etc. Ideally, that database would talk to Mcam and our matrix toolcrib so programmers are all working off the same data, and it'll pop drawers in the tool crib for our tooling guy.

 

We have a Zoller Smile420 with the TMS Bronze package.  The presetter is fantastic.  We never have to worry about issues with floor blending when using multiple tools, etc.   The programs you can right to check a tool are very powerful too.  You can have it check a step where it checks length and diameter of your holder, then stickout of the tool, corner radius of your endmill, etc etc into infinity.   However, the TMS system, in our opinion has been very cumbersome.  There is a place in the software to put different speeds/feeds for different materials, etc, but I'm not sure that that information exports to MC.  You can see it does have areas for different materials, under Machining Type you can set it to roughing, finishing, holemaking, or any other machining type you come up with.  

 

 

For us, it may have just been overkill.  Building tools was incredibly time consuming, and we don't have a toolcrib guy, so it was just us, the programmers trying to build the library, in addition to programming, and proving out new product.  The system is very heavily based on DIN standards, and most of the tools we use aren't DIN, or European tools.   We weren't totally thrilled with the 1 week training session we got from Zoller either.  The trainer seemed to struggle to build tools just as much as we were.  It has some weird glitches too.  Like for some reason it wants to put this undercut on every endmill.  And you can see all the different characteristics needed for each tool.  Some tools just need basic info!!

 

It seems like the key to the TMS system might be having a full-time guy dedicated to it, and limiting the functionality to what your shop needs.  A guy who is trained properly, and knows what he's doing wouldn't hurt either!!!

[NoobiusMaximus]

Is the main issue in building tools or in building assemblies?

Are all tools built manually or can CAD models be imported for things like face mills?

I assume you are taking tools built in the Zoller software and importing into Mastercam. How easy or difficult is that process? 

[Zoffen]

In a previous life I worked at a shop that bought the TMS software. $$$$$$$$$

Within a few weeks it was apparent that this software is not the easiest to use or is even feature complete. I asked for a mastercam interface and the latest they had was X9 (we were on 2019) The software is incredibly powerful but extremely difficult to use. The Demo's look great but once you get the software installed and in use at your location it becomes obvious that you need a full time person to champion the system. They will need to regulate it like GOD HIMSELF and smite the heathens who do not follow the system.

 

/rant

This leads to a greater question about tool management software.... If a software is very powerful yet very hard to use, is it really useful at all? By the time you shell out the $$$ for the software and all the $$$$ time and effort $$$$ to implement it, you would be better(IMHO) ahead hiring a developer to be on staff full time to develop In-House software that fits the needs of your organization. Nothing is better than custom software designed exactly for you and your operations workflow. Alot of the time the optimal workflow is disregard in favor of appeasing the software gods.

A Simple DB(SQL, Excel, ETC) + Mastercam Net Hook Functionality = Simple effective tool management

It just takes a little more imagination than buying software and assuming that it will solve all of your problems. But hey, what do I know, I'm just some guy on the internet!

\rant

[JB7280]

2 hours ago, NoobiusMaximus said:

Is the main issue in building tools or in building assemblies?

Are all tools built manually or can CAD models be imported for things like face mills?

I assume you are taking tools built in the Zoller software and importing into Mastercam. How easy or difficult is that process? 

Pretty much mirror what @Zoffen says. Once you have the individual components made, creating assemblies isn't actually that difficult.  You can bring it CAD models, and dxf files, but even then, creating the connection points, and making it just right is cumbersome in itself.  9 times out of 10 though, the manufacturer dxf or cad file isn't JUUUUUSSSST right and you have to remake it anyways.   To be honest, we're at a point where we've stopped renewing the TMS software, and we are just using the pre-setter because setting up TMS was just more than we had time for.  As far as importing into MC, that's easy enough, however they weren't always right, in our experience.  Maybe 10% of the time something was off, and then you had to be very careful about making your Zoller assembly match, in the event that you found something, and had to change your tool stickout or something in MC.  

 

It's seen as a very high-end software, so it must have lots of value to someone.  For us, not so much.  We were never really able to find a good workflow, and it was just too much.  

[Zoffen]

16 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

It's seen as a very high-end software, so it must have lots of value to someone.

Yes....Value to the people selling you the software.

I would love to see a facility where this software was fully implemented and working Super Duper Awesome and everyone is riding unicorns and shooting rainbows out their backsides....but i'm not sure this exists?  Maybe at the Zholler MFG facilities possibly....?

If so then it seems like an in-house solution that the sales guys got ahold of and made into a "product"

 

[NoobiusMaximus]

1 hour ago, JB7280 said:

To be honest, we're at a point where we've stopped renewing the TMS software, and we are just using the pre-setter because setting up TMS was just more than we had time for.  

My only concern with ignoring the TMS software is that the alternative seems to be managing two locations for tooling models. One in Zoller to ensure tools are set properly, and the other in Mcam for programming use and to ensure Vericut is correct. 

[Colin Gilchrist]

The reality is this takes huge money on the Implementation and Maintenance end.

> You need to configure the software. What do you want to "do" with the data?

> You either need to pay Zoller to implement your system, pay a 3rd Party Integrator to do it, or pay someone on your company's internal staff to do it (like Zoffen suggested).

> How do you want "data" to flow?

> Who is maintaining your software & your databases? Who is maintaining your Tool Crib Inventory?

JB has attested to the same thing I've seen in other shops with Zoller. They use the equipment for a fraction of "what the system could do", and they use the Presetter to set tool lengths, and print out labels, with Tool Length and Diameter values. The "label" is attached to each Tool Assembly, on a Tool Cart, which is parked next to the machine. The next job comes up, and the Operator unloads all the old tools, and manually loads the assemblies into the tool magazine, and then enters all the new TLO and Diameter Offsets "by hand", at the control.

I've seen other shops where this Tool Data was written to an RFID Chip. At the machine, there is an external "tool registration" station, where you scan the RFID tag. This automatically loads the TLO CRC values, without the possibility of operator error. However, the Operator could still accidentally load the wrong tool in the Tool Pot. The only way to really "close the loop", is if you have the ability to assign each Tool Assembly a unique identifier, and then have a "read/write data head", which can engage the tool while it is in the spindle. (Usually a data read/write event, before/after the tool is used. This does add some extra time, but results in process security and reliability.) The problem is > someone has to design the system, integrate all the hardware into the machines, train everyone how to use it, and then hold them accountable.

That last part, is typically the hardest.

[JB7280]

16 hours ago, NoobiusMaximus said:

My only concern with ignoring the TMS software is that the alternative seems to be managing two locations for tooling models. One in Zoller to ensure tools are set properly, and the other in Mcam for programming use and to ensure Vericut is correct. 

No models are needed to build the programs for checking a tool at the presetter.

[JB7280]

17 hours ago, Zoffen said:

Yes....Value to the people selling you the software.

I would love to see a facility where this software was fully implemented and working Super Duper Awesome and everyone is riding unicorns and shooting rainbows out their backsides....but i'm not sure this exists?  Maybe at the Zholler MFG facilities possibly....?

If so then it seems like an in-house solution that the sales guys got ahold of and made into a "product"

 

One of the guys who came to set it up told us that he worked for a large "shop" that had a toolcrib that was basically run by Kennametal.  He was actually an employee for Kennametal, and he said the TMS was in place there, but that's Kennametal.  I'm sure they have the resources to make it work.  

 

Regarding what @Colin Gilchrist said regarding paying Zoller to implement the system, we were originally told that for a fee, they will build components for you, you pay X amount, and they build X amount of components.  I can't remember exactly, but the quote was HEFTY.  Then last we heard they were stopping that offering.  We also had our Zoller rep come to us with some interesting questions that implied they were aware, or were getting other complaints that it just wasn't a system that could be implemented in house.  He basically agreed that it was more work than a small to moderate sized shop could implement on their own, and we were given a "oh darn, that sucks, glad you already paid, muahaha"

 

I think the biggest problem for us, is of the systems we were evaluating, Zoller did the best job at SouthTec of convincing us that a couple machinist/programmers could implement, and get the system up and running.  The pre-setter is a little easier to use, but we still don't use much of the capabilities, regarding building tool checking programs.  Our programs for setting tools basically check overall height, and verify runout.  It's capable of MUCH more than that, there just isn't time for us as the company doesn't seem to be able to say no to taking on new product!!

[Zoffen]

6 hours ago, JB7280 said:

He basically agreed that it was more work than a small to moderate sized shop could implement on their own, and we were given a "oh darn, that sucks, glad you already paid, muahaha" 

hmmm..... to me that's an admission that they have LIED or at least jaded the truth to get you to buy their software. Tell that to the sales rep face to face and see how he responds lol!

If it was my business I would ask(Demand?) for my money back! Or atleast some of it.

[JB7280]

20 minutes ago, Zoffen said:

hmmm..... to me that's an admission that they have LIED or at least jaded the truth to get you to buy their software. Tell that to the sales rep face to face and see how he responds lol!

If it was my business I would ask(Demand?) for my money back! Or atleast some of it.

Yes, I would want something done as well, but the owner doesn't seem to care, and we've spent more than enough time trying to get Zoller to make things right.  It's tough when you seem to more concerned with the company's $ than the owners and mgmt.  

[Zoffen]

25 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

It's tough when you seem to more concerned with the company's $ than the owners and mgmt.  

Typical. It seems like you should be the MGMT!

--

Hopefully someone in the future will read this thread and get a bit more "context" to make a more informed software purchase decision and save themselves lots of time and $$$$$

[JB7280]

1 minute ago, Zoffen said:

Typical. It seems like you should be the MGMT!

--

Hopefully someone in the future will read this thread and get a bit more "context" to make a more informed software purchase decision and save themselves lots of time and $$$$$

Yup, that's why I made sure to give my thoughts.  I don't like downing any company, as some may have merits, that just don't suit my needs, and as I said, the presetter itself is phenomenal.  And I would have really loved to have a proper, efficient system of managing tools here.  Unfortunately, this was not the way.  

[Guest]

I think Zoffen is on the money, a simple database management nethook would be much more sustainable and manageable...

[Zoffen]

1 minute ago, byte said:

I think Zoffen is on the money, a simple database management nethook would be much more sustainable and manageable...

Yup. Already implemented and running V2 in my shop.

Well worth the few months of developments. Even added ERP cause why not!

[JB7280]

5 minutes ago, byte said:

I think Zoffen is on the money, a simple database management nethook would be much more sustainable and manageable...

Agreed.  Are any of the other TMS softwares, like WinTool any better?  Or any less convoluted?  For us, we don't need the software to handle inventory, or any of that.  It would just be nice to have a central library to import tools and toolholders into Mastercam.  The issue I've found with doing this strictly in Mastercam, is that Mastercam doesn't like handling single components, it wants to put it straight into an assembly.  

[Zoffen]

I have no experience with other TMS software but I have a feeling it will be about the same.

Why will a "MASTER-ASSEMBLY-LIST.toolDB" on a server not work to get started?

One thing to not overlook is how things are named in any system. I have created a simple "structured text" language as a common way to name all of my tooling.

This makes automating thing alot easier in the future. Good systems start from the ground up and naming conventions are (IMHO) a fundamental of any good TMS.

EX: