Where's the Money At?

[Zoffen]

As a small operation I am always looking at ways to increase throughput and grow the shop $$$ wise without adding labor.

At first 3D printing seems like a no-brainer. Hit print. Profit. Retire.

But in reality there still seems like alot of logistical labor intensive things such as harvesting said parts, removing supports, post process, package, etc just like with any other manufactured good. I see guys with print farms on youtube and I always wonder how much money do they actually make 3D printing parts plastic widgets?

It appears the tech now is so widely available that to get any kinda of value-add you need to get into higher end processes with materials that an average print farm can't do.

So now you get into the higher end machines, with higher costs and still have the post processing issues as before, but now instead of removing support material with pliers you need a wire edm. Oh and don't forget the PPE requirements go up as well. You spend more money to then spend more money. Oh and don't forget the 100's of hours of failed prints dialing in everything!

So where's the money at to support all of this?

Is high end additive stuff only for exotic oem or is there any way that a small jobshop could add this to their capabilities realistically?

I see some value add in quick turn R&D with it added to a 5 axis cell and a small team you could easily iterate through design phases and scale to production very efficiently.

 

Anyone care to share their sage additive knowledge. I just want to hit print and take nap.

[JParis]

4 hours ago, Zoffen said:

Is high end additive stuff only for exotic oem or is there any way that a small jobshop could add this to their capabilities realistically?

With 3D printing, it really isn't so much about the material, yes, each material comes with it's own costs and issues. Where it shines for us is on specific parts that simply cannot be made via subtractive manufacturing or any kind.

It really comes down from what I have seen and learned, to the part design itself. Does it lend itself to additive or subtractive, or even a combination of both. Not every part you'll quote or make is proper for 3D printing, not yet any way.

I would say a job shop "could" add it but it would really depend on their customers and what they get or already quote for work or if they want to change and chase a certain kind of work. Will it work for the sake of having the capability, not financially feasible for the most part.

A lot of factors come into play when considering parts for 3D printing. Part shape, part size, material, machinability and more...

[Colin Gilchrist]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:22 AM, Zoffen said:

As a small operation I am always looking at ways to increase throughput and grow the shop $$$ wise without adding labor.

At first 3D printing seems like a no-brainer. Hit print. Profit. Retire.

But in reality there still seems like alot of logistical labor intensive things such as harvesting said parts, removing supports, post process, package, etc just like with any other manufactured good. I see guys with print farms on youtube and I always wonder how much money do they actually make 3D printing parts plastic widgets?

It appears the tech now is so widely available that to get any kinda of value-add you need to get into higher end processes with materials that an average print farm can't do.

So now you get into the higher end machines, with higher costs and still have the post processing issues as before, but now instead of removing support material with pliers you need a wire edm. Oh and don't forget the PPE requirements go up as well. You spend more money to then spend more money. Oh and don't forget the 100's of hours of failed prints dialing in everything!

So where's the money at to support all of this?

Is high end additive stuff only for exotic oem or is there any way that a small jobshop could add this to their capabilities realistically?

I see some value add in quick turn R&D with it added to a 5 axis cell and a small team you could easily iterate through design phases and scale to production very efficiently.

 

Anyone care to share their sage additive knowledge. I just want to hit print and take nap.

This is like saying you "just want to load up the pallet pool with material, and take a nap". Can it be done, absolutely! But there is no getting around all the investment in time and labor required to get to the point where you can just "print money".

There is no cheap/free lunch in manufacturing. Metal Powder is expensive. So is the engineering required to get from idea to printed part, let alone all the way through "finished and delivered part to the customer".

What competitive advantage can you apply, consistently, to make the 3D Printing process profitable in metal or plastic? I have yet to see a "job shop" enter the world of 3D printing (especially metal), and be instantaneously successful. You've got to find customers who are willing to pay for a technology to produce parts which "can't be made through traditional manufacturing technologies" (think engineered geometry like 'ntopology'), where the goal is to create periodic repeating geometric structures, for either "light weighting" purposes (lattice or generative design), or to find more efficient methods of heat transfer (like gyroid or diamond TMPS - triply periodic minimal surface).

Most of the 3D Printed Metal Parts I've seen still require some sort of post-process step. Heat Treating or hot isostatic pressing (HIP) treatments help change the density and porosity characteristics of the part. Many 3D printed metal parts still require traditional post-process machining steps (flanges, O-ring grooves, bores, seals, ports, etc.) to make a finished component, ready to be installed on a product or assembly.

One of the biggest hurdles to overcome are the materials and testing standards, and inspection processes, to qualify parts for any process which is safety critical.

Phillips has sold additive machines since 2000, and distributes for Markforged, EOS, and AML3D. We also build our own Phillips Hybrid machine, by integrating Meltio DED Print Heads onto Haas machines. These print heads feed a commercial welding wire down through the center of the nozzle, and hit the wire with 6 lasers (1,200 watts, 200 each) to form the melt pool. Our machines are an affordable entry point for additive, both new build and component repair processes, but you still need to make the business case for parts to be printed (to make the raw pre-form), and then finished machined. We also sell a standalone Meltio M450 machine, which only prints, but this way you and have one machine printing, while the CNC just handles the machining duties.

If you'd like to talk one-on-one, I can share more information and details which I wouldn't want to publicly disclose. For example, Phillips is building and running the Additive Manufacturing Center of Excellence for the US Navy, in Danville VA, for 3D printing additive parts for the Columbia-class Submarine.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/fastechengineering_usnavy-dod-usmanufacturing-activity-7118217521836486658-mO7H?

 

 

 

[cncappsjames]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:22 AM, Zoffen said:

As a small operation I am always looking at ways to increase throughput and grow the shop $$$ wise without adding labor.

At first 3D printing seems like a no-brainer. Hit print. Profit. Retire.

But in reality .....

I just want to hit print and take nap.

There's no such thing as a free lunch, and if ti was easy, EVERYONE would be doing it.

Just like unattended machining, there ARE a lot of logistical and process challenges to overcome. Think of everything that could possibly go wrong, because it will, and it will do so at THE most inopportune time. Murphy at your service. 

1st and foremost, an industrial 3D Printer is a must, there are very good consumer printers out there, but they just will not stand up to the rigors of non-stop running without even more frequent maintenance intervals. Next, remove variables. i.e. material suppliers. Go with reputable media manufacturers and stick with them (BASF, ColorFabb, Filementum, etc...). They will cost more, but in the long run, you'll have fewer bad prints. Environment, environment, environment. Just like when you want to hold a couple/few .0001's or 1-3µm when machining, climate control that environment. Once I got my printer in an enclosed space, my prints got WAY more predictable then I could adjust accordingly.

Those are just a few things off the top of my head I could think of. As like most things, the more work you do up front, the more benefits you reap on the back end. Cut corners up front and you'll pay on the back end. Guaranteed.

 

JM2CFWIW

 

[JParis]

$$ must be somewhere because we're buying another of the same model