TG100 collet chucks

[ChuckM]

Anyone have luck milling with these things?

 

I've been at the new job for a little better than 4 months now. The guys really needed new holders when I 1st got there and I pushed real hard for Richmill milling chucks but it was a "no go" from the bean counters. Real familiar with milling chucks and shrinkers cause that's what we used last place I worked, so I know how well they perform and feel real confortable pushing them.

 

Anyhow, I ordered a number of Lyndex TG100 collet chucks (short gage lngth) and two sets of Centaur collets. Well, these guys are just fine slotting/profiling with the smaller tools (1/4 and under) and are ok for profile-type cuts with the larger tools but I can't do anything to stop the chatter in slotting cuts with 3/8 and larger end mills. Grind flats and put that same tool in an end mill holder and she cuts like butter.

 

Very dissapointing, cause I just bought some Mitsubishi APX3000 indexable mills and these guys don't come with weldon flats on them. Ran a 3/4" 3-insert cutter in a TG100 the other day and it did not like it at all. Chattered at just .040 doc and I had to mill a couple of flats on the thing and run it in an EM holder just to get through the job.

 

So... it's either buy more end mill holders (we have very few) or find a milling chuck line that is "more affordable". Either that or convince the owners that what we can't afford is the loss of productivity and tool life.

 

Sorry this is so long but it's more of a venting than anything else. Please feel free to voice your experiences with TG100 and/or let me know of any "more affordable" tooling systems.

 

Thanks,

Chuck

[Psychomill]

I wouldn't do any major hogging with TG100's either. I have however done quite a bit with ER chucks in HSM apps. I much prefer mill chucks or shrinkers and the like though.

 

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Either that or convince the owners that what we can't afford is the loss of productivity and tool life.

 

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This is where it counts. They don't want to buy the better holders because it 'costs more'. Does it really?

 

Time is money. The 50 bucks they save on holder ends up costing them tons of money, many times over in increased cycle times and reduced tool life just for starters. There's a lot more cause and effect because of this.

 

My favorite saying about guys like this:

"Tripping over dollars to pick up dimes".

These guys can't see past they're noses... it's a wonder they manage to keep the doors open in this day an age.

 

I've argued with many shop owners about using "cheap" tooling (Lyndex TG holders are actually quite nice... but its still a TG holder). Most of them say "we're making money with what we've got." What they don't realize is the amount of money they're NOT making by using tool 'A'. If you bought tool 'X' (no pun intended ) you would make this much more.

 

I feel your pain, think I'm venting too now even though I'm currently at a shop where I can pretty much buy whatever I want... but I've been in your shoes many many times.

 

HTH

[ChuckM]

Hey thanks Psychomill. Sometimes we just need someone to lend an ear.

 

You're absolutely right though... some employers just don't seem to understand the concept of "time is money". Til they want to win a bid.... then they're wondering why it's going to take so long to get the job done. It's even worse when you work for someone who just woke up one day after earning their bachelors degree in business management and decided they were gonna go into manufacturing and better yet... machined parts. Yet know nothing about the manufacturing end of the design process. I spend the better part of my time trying to make the CEO understand what we do and do not have the capacity for. Makes for long days and a short book.

 

Anyhow, we only have 10,000 rpm to work with so I'm thinking the cheap solution to my problem is gonna come via solid end mill holders and weldon shank tools.

 

I'm going to keep pushing for the milling chucks. Gonna see if I can get one of the tool guys to bring one in and let us try it out. Thing is, we've been talking about adding a new machine and my goal is to push for more spindle speed so I'm looking to the future with this tooling purchase.

 

Thanks again.

Chuck

[crazy^millman]

Well look at us-shop tools if you want ot go cheap they have a 10% or 20% off for buying 10 holers that are the same. I would personally go to the er-32 if wanting to hold inserted tools. I have used er style holers for the better part of the time I have been doing CNC machining and to see these other collets where you lose anywhere from .15to.3 in space between the end of the coolet and the L.O.C. is just crazy in my mind. Yeah seen they save a $1 now to only spend $1000 later trying to get parts out the door. Over the years I have just learned to comprise with what I know is the right way and work with what you got to get the job done. Sometimes you can win the battle but most times just have to settle with getting what will get the job out the door.

 

Up down or through the window if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and smells like a duck it normal is a duck.

[jeff]

TG100 is all we use for finishing.

Haven't really came across any problem,been using them for years now.

The roughers will pull out while hoggin.

We have solid EM holders for inserted cutters and roughers.

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

I have had great success with TG100 collet chucks. I have used 3 or 4 brands of TG100 chucks without any issues. It may be possible that you have something wierd going on that has nothing to do with the TG100. Check your retention knob first.

 

I have converted whole shops over to TG because I believe that they are simply the best for the buck especially for the bigger stuff. I still like ER for the smaller stuff because it is inexpensive and easy to get a collet in a bind. I refuse to try to get ER32 to do anything as they do not have any clamping force at all compared to TG. I have had nothing but problems when trying to take big cuts with ER32(3/4 em). I really like mill chucks but I have never worked in a shop that would buy them. All they want to hear is what is the least expensive. So.. I use a combination of TG, ER and solid/set screw end mill holders.

 

A common problem with TG is that people do not tighten the tools up. They use a small/short spanner wrench that can't get the leverage required to achieve the tourqe spec. I reccommend tightening the tool to the manufactures reccommendations or at least close to.

 

The Kennemetal book says to tighten their TG100 to 120-150 ft-lbs. This always seemed a bit high to me but we have never had a problem.

 

The Lyndex book says to tighten theirs TG100 chucks to 75ft/lbs. This seem low to me? I will call them tomorrow as I am interested now.

 

Chuck, can I have the part number to the Lyndex TG100 holder that you are running?

 

JMHO

Mike

[chris m]

I'm with Ron on this, ER32 is definitely preferable to TG100 for milling. A 3/4 Endmill Holder is going to vibrate perceptably at 10K RPM where a 3/4 endmill in an ER32 collet chuck would be rock solid. If you want to stick with Lyndex you'd better shop around because ever since they were bought by Nikken their pricing is ridiculous. They finally struck a deal with one of their old distributors around here to get pricing back to normal levels after 80% of their local reps bailed on them due to insane price increases.

 

We use the C4007-0032 Cat40 short length collet chucks here and they are pretty solid pieces

 

C

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

Chris,

 

I am not saying that ER32 is bad, I am saying that I do not believe that they have enough clamping power for heavy rough aps. I use them all the time for finish or light roughing.

 

What happened to me once or twice was I was running a Makino A-55 and we were milling with a 3/4" Carbide EM at 14000rpm 400-800ipm 20-25hp cuts. The tool just pulled out of the holder every time. TG100 will not do this.

 

This is just my take. Do you think that this will work with ER32? This was long ago, there could have been something wrong?

 

BTW, I agree, the price with Lyndex is ridicules. We will not buy them. We run Kennemetal.

 

To get back to the point of Chuck's problem. I still can not believe that it is a TG100 problem. They still can do better than what he is stating. It sound like the machine is not clamping on to the tool.

 

Please comment as I am interested.

 

Thanks

[chris m]

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BTW, I agree, the price with Lyndex is ridicules. We will not buy them. We run Kennemetal.

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Kennemetal prices are ridiculous here, or they just don't like us

 

I've never run an ER32 collet chuck [or anything else for that matter] as hard as what you described so I am not able to comment on the relative merits of the ER vs TG in that type of situation

 

C

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

Contact your local Kennemetal Rep and get direct pricing.

 

Mike

[chris m]

I have and they SUCK, I mean f__king WAY off; their 'discount' pricing on an ER20 collet chuck is like $25 more than what I pay for the same Lyndex holder....

[crazy^millman]

If I were running that tool at that load I would be using a rigid tool holder. Better stability than any collet holdler but for 1/2 and below i will take a Er over a TG anyday of the week just my preference right wrong or indifferent. I need to take a .03 endmill and hand it would .5 to reach something I only want .51 stciking out of the collet to reach my .5 same goes for a .5 endmill I need 2.0 to reach my part I want 2.01 sticking out of the collet. Crazy talk I guess but the I look at .001 is a mile when it comes to running cnc machines.

 

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

[Psychomill]

+1 to Ron. I prefer ER over TG.

 

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Do you think that this will work with ER32?

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Yes. I've run 800+ with ER32 and 40. Even had a TG at 720. They make some noise though. The TG always seems to go through tools faster though that I attribute to runout at those speeds.

 

I'm with Ron though. Rigid holders. I only used the collets at those rates temporarily until I bought something else. The diameter of the holder and cap is always a problem too at those sizes.

 

I use all mill chucks and shrinkers. Lyndex/Nikken's new Ultra locks really kick a$$ and are a lot slimmer than traditional mill chucks.

 

Talk to the tool suppliers. Most of them will discount for quantity purchases even through the dealers. Have them set up quote packages and let them know that others are bidding too. I've saved thousands doing this.

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

Have you guys looked at the Kennemetal TG75 and TG100?

 

The collet is flush with the cap if using the round global nut(LNA).

 

We use TG75 for our 3/4em's because we have only 15-20hp machines. I still think that is even better than er32.

 

I will do some more testing and post on this thread in a few weeks or months. I will try ER32 against TG again.

 

Thanks,

Mike

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

Chuck,

 

May I know the Lyndex part number to the holder in question?

 

Mike

[crazy^millman]

Well Michael I will give you this test for 7050 and 7075 Aluminum. I have taken a a 3/4 inserted cutter and hung it out 2.1 in a ER-32 holder. I have run it at 400 ipm at 15000 rpm with a full width and .2 depth of cut and not seen it move. I have checked this with out touchsetter and verfied it is not moving becuase I was only leaving .005 on the walls and floor of a part I was roughing with it.

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

Ron,

 

This is only 60 cubes. This is a very nice cut for a light duty machine. I am saying that I believe that if you double the Z depth, the tool will move. This is very possible on a serious mill.

 

So..for light duty work they are fine.

 

Mike

[Psychomill]

Michael,

 

Ron is applying HSM techniques at which to double the Z (esecially at Full width) would be the wrong way. How about this? Just did this 2 months ago...

 

.2 doc, .5 step, 840ipm.... ER -32 84 cubes.

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

Sounds cool.

 

 

Mike

[ChuckM]

Michael,

We are using the C40S7-1000. I can save you the hassle though by saying... it's the shortest gage length Lyndex makes at 2.75".

 

Good point on the retention knobs. Let me just include that the retention knobs are all new and are torqued to 85 lbs/ft. Bought them at the same time as our TG100 chucks.

 

The cuts I referred to in my last post were experienced in extremely rigid setups, with short gage length tooling. The chatter we experienced at just .040 doc with a 3-insert 3/4" milling cutter was very disheartening. Even more so because I had to take a brand new cutter and mill weldon flats on it. Worked beautifully afterwards...

 

Well, the inexpensive route for us right now is to buy some end mill holders and mill flats on our APX cutters. Anyone with good/bad opinions on Techniks?

 

I have gotten the permission to try and work a quantity purchase of milling chucks for the larger tools. Big Sheppard, Lyndex and Richmill are gonna fight (fingers crossed) for our business.

 

Thanks for the help guys.

 

-Chuck

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

Chuck,

 

I looked up that number in the Lyndex book and I believe this should be a nice holder.

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Let me just include that the retention knobs are all new

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I believe that something is wrong with the knobs or the holder. I would really measure the knobs closely, if there is any doubt, run a TG holder with an old knob. If this is not the problem, then the holder is bad. I would demand my money back or replacement holders. TG is being used by large companies all over the world such as Catipiller. It is a proven design that has been around for years. It is something specific with your situation.

 

Mike