O/T but i'm curious

[Jack Mitchell]

Guy's, guy's guy's take a chill pill please, let's try to calm down a little.

We are all adult's here - right?

 

A whopping 95% of everything we are reading and viewing on this very Friday is altered for effect by those in control so let’s be a little more realistic with our expectations.

 

Relax and absorb what is being fed to us - how about those pictures via live transmission on the front of the tanks pursuing Baghdad; from my viewpoint it looks as if they are traveling at approximately 100 miles per hour - does anybody else really buy into this BS or is it the small byline that states the speed of these transmissions are not accurate.

CNN, what in the hell is this crap? Shame, shame, shame!

 

Your peace loving, American born friend – Jack

 

cmr - never , ever back down on your opinion - you own it and you have a right to it; if nothing else we have a right to our own opinions.

 

 

PS: American is always capitalized with an “A” and not stated as american.

 

Regards, Jack

 

[ 03-21-2003, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Jack Mitchell ]

[Brendan P]

quote:

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I was questioning the program before the operator

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Operator??

He is the Commander In Chief last I knew....

No hard feelings cmr...

I am having fun!

 

 

I knew it wouldn't be long before you came back Jack!

[Trevor Bailey]

I will agree with CMR on that we, Americans, should have sent 300,000 soldiers to track down Osama. CMR, even though MOST of your points have been valid, what the US is doing is also valid. I believe everything was planned and we will not stop this time until we do get Osama and everyone else that poses a threat to world safety. I so want to believe this in my heart. Maybe this is the time to finally put us all on the right track to achieving the ultimate goal, which is a very strong phrase, "Can't we all just get along?"

 

As mentioned before, I too, have been watching the news and have seen Iraqi peolpe clapping and hugging our soliers. It almost brought a tear to my eyes.

 

No matter what part of the world you, the individual, is in, this will be a war for us all. We need to stand together and give our upmost support for the sake of all our children.

[Chris Rizzo]

Thanks Jack! Don't worry, I havn't backed down, for now I'm reticent to the fact that the missles are in the air, and there is no pulling them back.

 

As to the media, you hit the nail on the head.

 

quote:

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A whopping 95% of everything we are reading and viewing on this very Friday is altered for effect by those in contro

---

I should have stepped in with that sooner, for the media's spin is the kernal around which most have their opinions shaped...most importantly the opinions on how we came to these actions today. Asking questions and debating is the only way to dig to reveal real answers. Opening these questions has been my goal all along, and trying show how the pat responses too many American's swallow are not necessarily the truth we are led to beleive...

[CAM-mando]

quote:

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A whopping 95% of everything we are reading and viewing on this very Friday is altered for effect by those in control so let’s be a little more realistic with our expectations.

---

Jack, my A merican comrade, of which "those in control" do you speak ?

[kathy]

I'm going to go way off on a limb here with you guys, but I thought this was timely.

 

I've been reading a Navy Seals site message board the last couple of days (personal reasons) and the moderators finally posted a topic that included the following quote:

 

quote:

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We do not want to see ANY "bashing" of ANY other members for any reason whatsoever. ...in typical Navy tradition - NOT ON MY WATCH! ...

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I guess the posting there were ranting way out of control. I would like to see the same thing here - let's show respect to one another and 'agree to disagree'

 

The men and woman over there in Iraq are putting their lives on the line for us and others to continue freedom. This is not a game. Let's not dishonor them by the childish bickering and name calling that has been portrayed here.

 

quote:

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Let's keep it professional.

---

Kathy

 

[ 03-22-2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: kathy ]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I'm trying really hard not to be my normal, brash, inconsiderate self these days.

 

CNN - Communist Nuisance Network!

Those guys are idiots! The only balanced news on the TV is Fox. The reason liberals scream about that network is because they often reveal the truth and liberals can't stand the truth. It makes them look bad.

[kathy]

James, James, James...

 

Didn’t you learn somewhere the folly of making 'All or Nothing' statements??

 

quote:

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and liberals can't stand the truth. It makes them look bad.

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Have you ever broke bread with a liberal?

Who knows, there may be one of the species lurking around here even as we correspond!

 

Kathy

btw - I was raised a Democrat (my daddy is a Texas Democrat) and most people of the conservative species shake their head and say - "But you can't be a liberal - you sound just like one of us". To which I reply - "No - I respond like a rational human being who believes that everyone is entitled to their viewpoint as long as it doesn’t hurt someone else"

 

I ment to add for Scott - my prayers that your nephew will return home safe along with everyone else.

 

[ 03-22-2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: kathy ]

[Jack Mitchell]

CAMmando,

 

Those in control of the media are definitely not the news broadcasters; what we are feeding on today is all well thought and predisposed – our thoughts and viewpoints are largely based on what we see on the news; unfortunately, we are viewing only what Washington dictates. – Washington controls the news whether you like it or not; did anybody catch the final report from Hans Blix on Tuesday? – Hey, guess what – it wasn’t covered by any American news media; why is that? (I believe this true since it did not provide the fodder or motive to resort to war, it did not provide the proof or the answers, it only provided a solution that does not require military action)

 

I view CNN and Fox on a daily basis – I refuse to swallow the news as it is presented.

 

James,

Fox has run the same exact BS as CNN – please tell me that I am not the only person that has viewed the tanks rolling at more than 100 miles per hour - I believe the story goes that all is fair in love and war; wave of steel ten miles wide? Born yesterday???

The newscasters voices should have also come out like Theodore & Alvin (cannot recall the other chipmunk). I simply cannot believe that we are this gullible to eat this crap up as it is being served to us on a dirty plate.

 

Kathy,

I admire your effort here. I have not targeted any forum members with slander – there is no intent to attack other people, there is no intent to harm anybody in this discussion; I am angry that Bush went ahead with this – basically, I believe the world is angry that America has brushed aside the United Nations and has risked worldwide peace and harmony. – I am sure that I will be bashed for saying this, but what the hell, I always enjoy a good debate.

 

I believe the anticipated arrival in Baghdad in two days will be a grave concern to all involved as I believe the war will also become an urban adventure; imagine a street by street, house by house search and destroy mission – this will indeed become a very tragic war that will never end. (My thoughts are of the child from Cuba and the automatic weapon pointed at the man holding that child – this is where the war is heading to, one door at a time?). I cannot recall names but I do indeed recall the photograph.

 

Where does the final collapse of Iraq lead - Syria, Libya, Turkey, perhaps Jordan?

I am very, very disappointed with the Bush administration for pursuing this horrible and disgusting war – I believe he has stepped into an event that can only lead to further suffering - foreign lives are at stake here, American lives are at stake here, for what?

Please tell me that the Iraqi people surrendering on the alleged pictures and footage are armed as equally as the American soldiers, tell me that these rigimeist xxxx are nothing more than simple folk that are trying to defend their country with honor as any of us would as well.

 

Even though I do not want to put up any pictures on this thread, I am tempted to put up the picture of Bush last week – to me this does not show a leaders face, to me this shows a scared little kid in a mans body that has gone too far to come back to the pride and satisfaction of being a real person, of being a real American, of being a true statesman and leader, this is what we are looking for, this is what we expect, this is democracy, this is the USA, be proud – and kick his lowly butt from office.

 

Call me everything under the sun on my take, as always I welcome a solid and sincere basharama , basharoo, eat my face and die, and all the rest of it.

 

I am very angry that this unnecessary war has hurt Americans and Iraqis alike – this is where Bush has lead us and yet we have a responsibility to say that we are greater than this and that we are better humans than to simply stand aside and watch a pathetic slaughter of innocent people.

 

Whether or not I respond to this thread in the future largely lies my ability to dodge my spouse and to pretend that I am just doing some innocent surfing.

 

Bash away guy’s, otherwise I have just spent the last hour typing this BS out!

 

Your friend, Jack.

[Chris Rizzo]

Just the facts folks, just the facts....

 

quote:

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Television is the means by which most Americans get their ?news.? Without exception, every major network is owned by a huge conglomerate that has enormous conflicts of interest. Fox News Channel is owned by Rupert Murdoch, a right-wing Australian who already owns a significant portion of the world?s media. His network has close ties to the Republican Party, and among his ?fair and balanced? commentators is Newt Gingrich. Fox's founder and president, Roger Ailes, was for decades one of the savviest and most pugnacious Republican political operatives in Washington, a veteran of the Nixon and Reagan campaigns. Ailes is most famous for his role in crafting the elder Bush's media strategy in the bruising 1988 presidential race.

---

http://www.fair.org/extra/0108/fox-main.html

 

http://www.fair.org/extra/9711/gmg.html

[Jack Mitchell]

cmr.

 

All said and done, CNN and Fox promoted the exact same crapola, garbage, smoke and a pancake? pipe and a crepe? Don’t ya know! - There is no excuse for such blatant lack of professional journalism. - how blind to the truth are we anyways?

 

One more comment - the only positive thing that has come out of Australia of late is G95, am I right? Or am I right?

 

 

Regards, Jack

 

[ 03-22-2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Jack Mitchell ]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Oh puhhhhhhhllllllleeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz!

 

Just because Fox will even tell the "Right" side of the story they get roasted by the liberals. They are not as far right as the other networks are to the left. The Democrats shoudl do themsleves a favor and get Alan Combs to run for office. At least he is unashamed about his positions instead of putting his finger up in the air to see which way the wind is blowing like the other Democrap scum in office. I can at least respect a guy like that even though I disagree wholheartedly with 99% of his positions.

 

I believe that the Military is using the media to it's advantage just as it did in the Gulf War. Because xxxx(or the next in command) has lost nearly all communication from the south, he's probably watching the same things we are and hopefully he's confused as hell! Everybody in the US that knows anything about military hardware knows the top speed of our asssorted tanks, and fighting vehicles. 100 MPH Did people really say that? I don't have cable so I was only able to see the local news which was carrying various correspondents. They didn't really say that did they?

[Brendan P]

James.....

You mean you still use those "Rabbit Ears"

For your T.V.?

[Rekd™]

quote:

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They didn't really say that did they?

 

---

James, the images Jack is refering to are taken with such low frame rates that it looks like everything's going really fast. Your eyes play tricks on you when you get old...

 

Jack, I'm really let down by your post. I expected better from you. In fact, I was looking forward to an intelligent, well informed fight from you. But nooo, you stick to the (no longer valid) age old reply "the media lies!"

 

We live in a very informative world. And if all you see is what's on TV then you need to get out more. There's a plethora of avenues for information, some to be trusted and some not. Use it.

 

'Rekd teh Disapointed

[Chris Rizzo]

Ok, just for a minute let's pretend that the media DOESN'T lie. Tell me how can you expect unbiased and objective reporting from a reporter that is riding in an American battlegroup? The group which he is with is responsible for his life, and also his information. I'm not saying that they are "lying", but the spin is natual and unequivicable. When most major networks are employing more generals and commanders than reporters, the medium is most certainly shaped by the messengers.

 

The "concern" that Iraqi leadership is gleaning tactical information from the same CNN and FOX feeds that the American public is seeing is a laughable myth. Our leader ship is more concerned by the possiblity that if they knock the power out, Iraq can't watch T.V.

quote:

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The line of tanks I'm riding with stretches as far and the eye can see, and I'm sure well over the horizon. This massive iron fist is closing in on Baghdad. I'd sure hate to be on the receiving end of this.

---

What a fantastic conduit for broadcasting propaganda and fear! I'll admit it is a great idea for a subversive tactic; terrifing the enemy by broadcasting the overpowering display of might; but let's realize it is just that...and not legitamate journalism. Unfortunalty the same propaganda directed towards the foe is better assimilated by the American people than Iraqi leadership!

 

I can hear your criticism now, the least of which might call me a skeptic and cynic. However, do you belive propaganda from the Haas salesman when he tells you that they make great, rigid machines? Of course not, we are doubtful of all salesman (I hope). He has his motives for the spin, and the government/media does for theirs.

 

Well Rekd, for once I agree. I hope some can take your advise and not swallow what they're being fed ...you too .

quote:

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We live in a very informative world. And if all you see is what's on TV then you need to get out more. There's a plethora of avenues for information, some to be trusted and some not. Use it.

---

[CAM-mando]

Jack, CMR ...

 

I certainly respect your strong feelings. I also agree that certain "powers" will spin the facts to their advantage. ALL governments do this. Some more than others. Example Sadam won the latest election with over 99% of the votes. That doesnt fly here does it ? (of course the last election with the chad thing casts some doubt there I guess) Point is there will never be a government that doesnt spin the facts. Nor will there be a media that doesnt report based on their bias. What controls their bias ? Maybe knowing that they could be expelled from the troops they are imbeded with ? I dunno. Point is our media coverage is not dirrectly controlled by the government.

 

We are free to purchase newspapers from around the world at our local newstand or Borders Bookstore or wherever ... try that in Bagdhad. And this business of sucumming to the "information" as it is presented is not limited to people who support the troops or the war effort. Look at the knuckle heads running around in New York today. Who organized that rally ? Was that a "grass roots" movement of peace lovers ? NO !

 

It was a proffesionally organized incedent of "non-violent civil disobedience". Although many of the protesters are people who are uncomfortable with war of ANY kind, there is an equal mix of your anti-establishment anti-authority types. But the real driving force behind that demonstration is political groups with real Agendas. Agendas which if ever embraced by the majority would be the demise of this country as we know it. Maybe You Jack and CMR are OK with that. Im not.

 

The Protest was sponsored by "United For Peace And Justice" but if you want to donate to them and have it be tax deductible you must make your check out to "Peace Action Education Fund". Hmm what do they stand for. Read their fact sheets. Total disarmament of the US Nuclear Weapons. Regardless of what the rest of the world is doing. Halting the missle defense program completely. Stopping the "War On Terrorism" (ie (hunting down Alquieda). They instead suggest we use the "Law" to prosecute the 9/11 terrorist. Hello !!!! They arent available to stand trial. They died flying jets into the WTC killing 3000 innocent americans. Their alquida backers would be happy to have every day be 9/11 if they could. But they cant. Why the hell is that ??? Because they are running and hiding for their lives ducking bunker busters and the like.

 

The Socialist party, Muslim American Society (devoted to the spread of islam through the entire world) are some others. If you look closely at the signs you will see that these rallys started by pooling together many different existing groups with other agendas. These people were then joined by others who have simply a NO WAR sentiment.

 

Point is Who is reporting that ? Look at the Reporting of some of the Arab countries. Are they reporting the news objectively ? GIMME A BREAK JACK. You are no more astute than most of us. You just grind your axe on thje other side of the blade.

 

I will shut up with this... God willing this war will go quickly and some form of peace will come to Iraq. In the powder keg that is the middle east this action is certainly a roll of the dice. Nobody can deny that. But be sure of this. If the shoe was on the other foot, Iraq Republican Guard or Alqueida or any of the other enimies that would be more than happy to attack US would not stop at liberating us from the evil George Bush. They would be here to slit your throat and my throat and my mothers throat. Im sure that Jack will say that this is media spin too. I pray that we never find out. But if some of the supposed anti war (actually anti American) powers get their way we will all be poor, less than free, defenseless and praying on Fridays.

 

[ 03-22-2003, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: CAMmando ]

[kathy]

This is a good thing – we are back to good honest debating over the issues.

 

How about the fact that this country (USA) has broken their own laws? Did you know it is illegal for our government to sanction/condone/endorse/carryout the assassination of another head of state?

 

What do you think targeting Saddam is?

Who wants to bet that there were snipers sent in early just to take him out?

 

Do I catch wind of ‘The ends justify the means”??

 

Kathy teh devil’s advocate..

[CAM-mando]

quote:

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Do I catch wind of ‘The ends justify the means”??

---

Ummmmm .... Yeah

 

Dave teh honest

 

PS: I believe that during WAR it is long standing "Policy" (probably good policy) not "Law" that precludes us from killing a head of state. In that case that wouldnt be exactly a fact now would it.

 

[ 03-22-2003, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: CAMmando ]

[kathy]

Okay - did congress declare WAR? (I may have missed that - I did see that the Senate passed a resolution or two)

 

CAMmando - I do believe that it is a legal statue. Tomorrow I will try to look it up.

 

Kathy teh It’s been a long day and I’m tired.

I'm going to go in and watch Casablanca for the umthinth time...

[CAM-mando]

Kathy teh tired,

 

Congress never declares war anymore, its too controversial and their terms are too short to forget the war before re-election comes up.

 

For some light reading regarding international law (more fun than reading Fanuc manuals)

International Law re assination of Sadam

[Chris Rizzo]

Kathy, here is a rather long-winded and somewhat enlightening description of international law...however it seems as if there may be no clear answer...

 

http://www.tzemachmusic.com/fyi/docs/beres/saddam.htm

[Chris Rizzo]

Ha! Same link CAMmando! On some level our brains come together!

[CAM-mando]

cmr,

 

seems we used different means to achieve the same end We posted the same link at the same time.

 

I will only quote the last paragraph... conclusion ???

 

In the matter of Saddam Hussein, assassination options should be conceived and deliberated very narrowly with respect to peremptory expectations of anticipatory self-defense. Its only proper function must be to save lives. Acknowledging that this is not yet the "best of all possible worlds," we must understand that sometimes the reluctance to use such seemingly extreme options would only produce more corpses.

[CAM-mando]

quote:

---

our brains come together!

---

Is that like butting heads

[kathy]

CAMmando & cmr:

 

I am reading Prof. Beres 's essay - I'm not quite through yet. Sounds like a rationalization thought.

 

I found this - and you're right. Congress did water down their veto / check balance when it cam to war. Haven’t read all of it either, but the beginnings fairly clear.

 

http://www.house.gov/shays/crsprodget.pdf

 

Kathy the well still researching

 

[ 03-23-2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: kathy ]