Which 5axes to choose.....

[tancuda]

Hi everebody,

I work for a big name so $$ is not really a concern, and we are looking for a

vertical 5 axis cnc mill (no turning), with a table of 36" to 48" in diameter, minimum 80 tools, must be very ergonomic, we are not doing any production or mould work, 

we can do 1 to 3 or 4 set-up per day, and 80% of the job is probrammed at the control, so we need something very user friendly and capable.

 

Here's what I found below, would like your opinion on these and if there's any particular model you would buy, just tell me.

 

Thanks a lot

(sorry for my english)

 

 

DMU 105: http://ca-en.dmgmori.com/products/milling-machines/universal-milling-machines-for-5-sided-5-axis-machining/dmu-monoblock/dmu-105-monoblock#Intro

 

Makino D800Z : http://www.makino.com/vertical-machining-centers-5-axis/d800z-50-taper/

 

Hermle C52 : http://www.hermlemachine.com/cms/en/products/product_overview/bearbeitungszentrum_c52/

 

Alzmetall GS 1200 or 1400 /5-T : http://www.alzmetall.com/alzmetall/index.php?id=gs140050&L=1

 

[jlw™]

Have you looked at Mazak?  Mazatrol is very user friendly IMO.

[FROZEN]

Mazatrol is very user Friendly for make washers. NO surfacing and nothing out of the Box. It is great for turn and simple milling. I would strongly advise Makino with a CAM system. That has an environment  for verifying.

[tancuda]

Ya Mazak offer lots of machines,  you have to go thru all the machine on their website and they are affraid to put some pictures of it.

I heard that their control are not very capable vs Seimens 840D, anyone use both ??

 

I have played with the 840D with shopmill and it's great, program are very visual, restart is simple, lot's of good things.

[jlw™]

Mazatrol is very user Friendly for make washers. NO surfacing and nothing out of the Box. It is great for turn and simple milling. I would strongly advise Makino with a CAM system. That has an environment for verifying.

I could prove you wrong!

[Guest MTB Technical Services]

Avoid Mazak.

Mazak is Japanese for 'Boat Anchor'.

 

Avoid DMG/Mori at all costs.

They try to be all things to all people and it shows in the quality of the machine.

 

Makino all the way.

[Guest]

Out of what you have listed, Makino....

 

Have you looked at Matsuura?

[tancuda]

Just checked on Mazak website again, and I dont think they have a swiveling table that big (36" to 48" dia), and we don't want a swiveling head.

 

Do you think we can get a cam system direcly in the control on the makino ?

And their modified Fanuc control (pro 5 I think), is it really better than stock ?

 

For mazatrol not being that good, what we want to do very easily is : pocket and custom pocket on a pitch circle or inline etc., 

holes and conterbore on a pitch circle, in line etc, and/or all of the above on the periphery of the part (table tilted at 90deg.)

We want cycle for thread mill, engraving, and be able to restart anywhere in the program, skip hole or pocket easily too.

 

Well keep going guys, I like seeing answers, thanks !

[tancuda]

Out of what you have listed, Makino....

 

Have you looked at Matsuura?

Yes but we need a table of 36" to 48" in dia.

[jlw™]

Avoid Mazak.

Mazak is Japanese for 'Boat Anchor'.

 

Avoid DMG/Mori at all costs.

They try to be all things to all people and it shows in the quality of the machine.

 

Makino all the way.

50/50 ain't bad...

 

I hear fadal is making a machine again...

 

Just kidding. In my opinion, at the machine programming, especially 5 axis, Mazatrol is very easy. With WPC Shift you can machine any angle in 2d and it compensates for COR deviaion. Look at the imachines. I like a table/head machine.

 

So you want a 48in table/table machine? You could look at Heller but $$$ and (small children don't read the next word) Siemens.

 

I don't know about the conversational on Makino but I don't recall ever hearing anything bad about them.

[Guest]

I'd like to see how long a machine would be sitting being programmed with some of the 5 axis stuff I've done.....

 

Offline programming is the only real way to be efficient, especially with multi-axis programming

 

Every minute that machine sits being programmed and not running is $$$ lost

[Guest MTB Technical Services]

50/50 ain't bad...

 

I hear fadal is making a machine again...

 

Just kidding. In my opinion, at the machine programming, especially 5 axis, Mazatrol is very easy. With WPC Shift you can machine any angle in 2d and it compensates for COR deviaion. Look at the imachines. I like a table/head machine.

 

So you want a 48in table/table machine? You could look at Heller but $$$ and (small children don't read the next word) Siemens.

 

I don't know about the conversational on Makino but I don't recall ever hearing anything bad about them.

 

 

If you were my employee and extolled the virtues of programming a multi-axis machine on the shop floor, I would fire you as fast as possible.

Doing what you propose amount to throwing away money.

Do that with your own money, if you wish.

Trying to get a business owner to do it is malevolent and indicates a profound ignorance of business economics.

 

You buy a CAM system to program.

You buy a machine tool to make parts.

A machine that is sitting idle while you are using it to program parts might as well be a boat anchor.

 

 

Operating A CNC Powered Machine Shop

A Road Map for Efficient Manufacturing

http://tinyurl.com/6tzbtqf

[gcode]

We have an Okuma MU-1000

It's a horizontal 5 axis trunion and an absolute beast

60HP spindle, 5500 pound table capacity, 170 station tool magazine, dual pressure through spindle coolant and laser tool setting

It's also got a pallet loader with 2 pallets... I've seen a brochure for a 6 station pallet system.

Add probing and a skilled operator and you've got a world class 5X one off machine.

[jlw™]

If you were my employee and extolled the virtues of programming a multi-axis machine on the shop floor, I would fire you as fast as possible.

Doing what you propose amount to throwing away money.

Do that with your own money, if you wish.

Trying to get a business owner to do it is malevolent and indicates a profound ignorance of business economics.

 

You buy a CAM system to program.

You buy a machine tool to make parts.

A machine that is sitting idle while you are using it to program parts might as well be a boat anchor.

 

 

Operating A CNC Powered Machine Shop

A Road Map for Efficient Manufacturing

http://tinyurl.com/6tzbtqf

So, you want to take a weldment that needs one hole circle milled and program it offline? I could do it at the panel faster than I could make it up the stairs to my office.

 

Sorry you're incapable of seeing the benefits of every tool available. You must not have done many huge weldments that need one or two simple features after weld.

 

Sounds like another case of infinite experience.

[Guest MTB Technical Services]

So, you want to take a weldment that needs one hole circle milled and program it offline? I could do it at the panel faster than I could make it up the stairs to my office.

 

Sorry you're incapable of seeing the benefits of every tool available. You must not have done many huge weldments that need one or two simple features after weld.

 

Sounds like another case of infinite experience.

 

 

Try actually reading and comprehending.

 

You are still very young in this field and obviously have a lot to learn.

 

Can you calculate the break-even hourly rate used to cost the machine for CAPEX?

Can you calculate the actual enterprise cost of keeping the machine out of production to program a part?

Can you determine the costs of your spindle utilization rate?

Can you compare budgeted costs versus actual costs based on projected versus actual spindle utilization?

 

Does your company have an certification that requires adherence to documented procedures?

Do you know the cost of violating those procedures?

 

FTR, I trained for 2 weeks at the Mazak Factory back in 2004.

Have you had direct training at the Mazak Factory?

[Guest]

 

 

FTR, I trained for 2 weeks at the Mazak Factory back in 2004.

Have you had direct training at the Mazak Factory?

 

No but he slept at a Holiday Inn once  

[jlw™]

Try actually reading and comprehending.

 

You are still very young in this field and obviously have a lot to learn.

I'm pretty sure I comprehended you would fire me for advocating doing a simple part at the panel. What do you think I didn't comprehen Maybe you missed where I said "simple" parts. What's your experience? Medicl? Steel mill? Die? Large or small parts? So, you'd program a simple pocket that had welded build up for wear offline, in an entirely different building than where it is t be machined? Did the welders put the .250 weld

that was called out or did they weld it .750 thick? Do you plan it safe and cut air for half an inch at speeds for waspaloy or do you do it in mazatrol where you can change the stock amount in exactly 4 seconds?

 

Man, so many people are so quick to call others "newbs" and very young in this work when they have no idea the type of work others do. You clearly are not as experienced as you think you are and apparently haven't seen how quick and easy Mazatrol is for SIMPLE 5 sided work. Yu clearly have time to do every job ahead but when you service a steel mill that needs parts in hours you can get spindles turning at the panel in minutes while the rest is programmed offline.

 

Why are you so quick to attack? I guess because of you infinite knowledge.

[gcode]

There is a time and place for both on-line and and off line programming.

A good operator  with a suite of macros can do a bolt circle faster than  a programmer can figure out what's required and

get it done.

Beyond simple stuff though, off line programming should be the rule.

The hourly rate on a modern 5X machine is simply too high to be sitting there while an operator punches code in by hand

[jlw™]

There is a time and place for both on-line and and off line programming.

A good operator with a suite of macros can do a bolt circle faster than a programmer can figure out what's required and

get it done.

Beyond simple stuff though, off line programming should be the rule.

The hourly rate on a modern 5X machine is simply too high to be sitting there while an operator punches code in by hand

This is exactly what I was saying.

[tancuda]

There is a time and place for both on-line and and off line programming.

A good operator  with a suite of macros can do a bolt circle faster than  a programmer can figure out what's required and

get it done.

Beyond simple stuff though, off line programming should be the rule.

The hourly rate on a modern 5X machine is simply too high to be sitting there while an operator punches code in by hand

That's really my opinion, good macros and/or good control or offline.

 

 

Thanks guys, keep going...

[Guest]

Yes but we need a table of 36" to 48" in dia.

MAM72-100H.

 

Not a VMC but has a 1 Meter Swing. On the lower side of your spec but ... It's a good machine. PLENTY of tool capacity.

[Guest MTB Technical Services]

I'm pretty sure I comprehended you would fire me for advocating doing a simple part at the panel. What do you think I didn't comprehen Maybe you missed where I said "simple" parts. What's your experience? Medicl? Steel mill? Die? Large or small parts? So, you'd program a simple pocket that had welded build up for wear offline, in an entirely different building than where it is t be machined? Did the welders put the .250 weld

that was called out or did they weld it .750 thick? Do you plan it safe and cut air for half an inch at speeds for waspaloy or do you do it in mazatrol where you can change the stock amount in exactly 4 seconds?

 

Man, so many people are so quick to call others "newbs" and very young in this work when they have no idea the type of work others do. You clearly are not as experienced as you think you are and apparently haven't seen how quick and easy Mazatrol is for SIMPLE 5 sided work. Yu clearly have time to do every job ahead but when you service a steel mill that needs parts in hours you can get spindles turning at the panel in minutes while the rest is programmed offline.

 

Why are you so quick to attack? I guess because of you infinite knowledge.

 

 

Newbs.....

 

When you state that Mazak and SIEMENS are the best, don't act surprised when someone calls you on it.

[jlw™]

Newbs.....

 

When you state that Mazak and SIEMENS are the best, don't act surprised when someone calls you on it.

Never said the best, said I prefer. Opinions are like buttholes, every one has one and some stink worse than others.

 

Having an opinion makes me a newb. Thinking you have the only opinion and absolute knowledge of what's best makes you an old noob.

[silky_johnson]

I would lean towards the Alzmettall and the Hermle. Both machines are built very solid and you can get the Heidenhain control on either one. In my opinion, the Heidenhain is the best control going. It may seem weird at first if you are living in a Fanuc world, but it's conversational programming is graphical and very straight foward.

 

Also....since you are looking at a 5 axis machine, the plane functionality and tool center point control has been a strong point of the control long before Fanuc even considered it. Siemens also has had this functionality long before Fanuc, but in my opinion Heidenhain has more of a straight foward implementation of it.

 

In North America, Hermle has more of a foothold then Alzmettall, which I'm guessing most people here has never heard of, so that may sway your thinking.

[tancuda]

MAM72-100H.

 

Not a VMC but has a 1 Meter Swing. On the lower side of your spec but ... It's a good machine. PLENTY of tool capacity.

Thanks, I'll suggest this one to the person involved.