5-axis post

[ronengineer]

Hello,

I am a v8.1 l3 user here in Northampton in the UK and am new to the forum. I have programmed with MasterCam for 7+ years (since v4.0 !) and I work in a precision sub-contract engineers producing parts, in the main, for the F1 industry.

I would like to know if anyone could forward me a generic fanuc 5-axis post-processor as we are taking delivery of a new 5-axis machine in a few weeks time and we would like to try to customise a post for it ourselves. The actual spec of the control is a Matsuura G-Tech 840DI (Yaskawa Siemens) with Fanuc style ISO coding, but anything close will do !

I ususally modify the posts supplied on the CD, but unfortunatly MasterCam do not bundle any 5-axis posts with v8.

Thanks very much if you can help.

[Allan Brown]

You'll find that there aren't very many free 5-Axis posts floating around. There are many other threads on this topic. Here is a sampling:

http://www.emastercam.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000115.html

http://www.emastercam.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000471.html

http://www.emastercam.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000796.html

http://www.emastercam.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000889.html

 

[cadcam]

There is one of two thoughts check with your dealer or go to www.postprocessor.com to get a quote on a custom made post for you.

just let Paul know jay sent you from Precision Programming.

thanks

------------------

jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

cnc programming &

Predator reseller

email: [email protected]

web: www.ppcadcam.com

[ronengineer]

Hello,

Thanks go to Dave & Cadcam for your replies.

We have already been quoted £3995 (convert that to $'s !) by our dealer for a custom built post which is why we wanted to mod one ourselves.

If you consider the cost of the post, not to mention the £1800 price tag for the Catia converter (oh, I just have !) which we also need, you are well on your way to the cost of another vendors complete CAM system.

Maybe we shouldn't be so cheap but is it really value for money ?

[CycleTimeCharles]

How much did your 5 axis machine cost?

How much would it cost you if that machine was not running effiently with no downtime due to programming?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

ronengineer,

One thing to consider in the 5 Axis realm - things are expensive!

The machines are expensive, the software to program the machine is expensive, the 5 Axis Programmer is expensive, the posts are expensive, etc..... ad-infinitum.

I know that won't make you feel better and it may make you want to go in another direction but getting a post dialed no matter who's software package is going to be roughly what you are paying now.

Their are other software packages that can generate posts, Jay mentioned one, there is also a package called CAM Post by ICAM. (http://www.ICAM.com) CAM Post will allow you create your own posts.

------------------

James Meyette

[cadcam]

on the same note from james soon Predtor will have a post maker.

that you will be able to make and adjust all your posts freindly.

it will be called OUTPOST i will keep you folks updated for its release.

------------------

jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

cnc programming &

Predator reseller

email: [email protected]

web: www.ppcadcam.com

[ronengineer]

Points taken folks.

Yes our 5-axis m/c was expensive but at least it works as a 5-axis machine unlike MasterCam which has 5-axis toolpaths which are of no use without an extra investment.

(Where does it say this in the sales literature ?)

My point was that without a single included 5-axis capable post, we cannot use these toolpaths.

We therefore have no choice, if we are to generate 5-axis code using MasterCam, we have to make this investment.

Whilst I am on my soapbox I would argue that the price charged for 5-axis posts seems to reflect the cost of starting from scratch with a blank post.

I fully realise that 5-axis is complex and machine configurations are many and varied, but surely this is only a matter of enabling/disabling axes and altering the parameters of a standard 5-axis post to suit our machine.

 

[Allan Brown]

Mpfan out of the box supports the Rotary4ax toolpath which is based on 5-Axis NCI code. The only thing missing is a tilt angle calculation and subsequent coordinate adjustment for what would essentially be a stacked rotary configuration. Have a look at the pxyzcout3 postblock that traps and handles the NCI gcode 11 5-Axis moves in Mpfan.

Of course if the machine has an articulating head, everything changes, which is exactly the point. If Mastercam included an out-of-the-box 5-Axis post, I can't imagine the number of calls I would receive claiming that the post should run any given 5-Axis machine, but doesn't.

In my research on multi-axis post rates, the typical Mastercam multi-axis development charges are quite reasonable. In many 3rd party post processor systems, you pay for the ability to create posts, and you pay for the ability to run posts. Of course if you need someone to actually write the post itself, you'll pay for that too.

Mastercam provides a flexible and powerful, open, editable post processor, and doesn't force the user to purchase individual licenses for unencrypted posts shared on several workstations.

At the end of the day, paying for additional development services for Mastercam post customization or multi-axis development is still a very cost effective way to obtain a post processor tailored to your machine.

[This message has been edited by Dave Thomson (edited 05-03-2001).]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

To jump on Dave's Bandwagon there are several "main" configs and an exponential number of subconfigs for 5-Axis Machines.

Here are the main styles;

1) Tilt/Tilt

2) Tilt/Rotary

3) Rotary/Rotary

4) Rotary/Tilt

5) Gantry "Style"

etc......

With that "said",the vector math, axis mapping, etc.... are ALL Different for each of these styles and sub styles thus making a "Generic 5 Axis Post" an impossibility to produce. It's not really possible to "flip a few switches" and have a good post. It would be nice, but then again it would be really nice if Fanuc, Siemens, Heidenhein(sp?), Fadal, Tosnuc, Yasnac etc... would all speak the same "language" wouldn't it? The same principle applies to posts.

------------------

James Meyette

[ronengineer]

Sure you will get phone calls but then isn't that how you get post buisness anyway for 3 and 4 axes? And quite rightly so. All we want is the chance to fail at configuring it for ourselves ! It is so much nicer to have total 'control' over your code.

As regards the different machine configurations then the rather excellant looking piece of configurable POST software from CIMCO is based around a machine parameter (.prm file) and a .pst file.

Also the CAMAIX multiXpost gives you standard machine types.

But are these going to be sold to us ordinary mortals or only to dealers? (CAMAIX web site).

Oh well, looks like I had better start saving up then.

 

[gstephens]

If you are interested, I have a Microsoft Powerpoint presentation that explains calculating 5-axis vector motion in the post processor. If you are going to modify your own post, you probably want to take a look.

E-mail me and I can forward it to you.

 

[dsharpe]

Gentlemen

As a User and not a Dealer I think that Ron has a point. Mastercam l3 is sold as a system that will program in 3,4+5 axes. To then say that you will have to pay roughly half the price of a new system again to make it do so is a bit rich.

IMHO there are definate advantages in writing or modifying your own posts. In my exp. when you first get a new M/C you don't really know what from a post and after a few months you will want changes and to be able to do them yourself is very convenient.

5 axis posts may be very complex but Ron is just asking for the chance to try and do it himself if he fails he will probably be quite happy to pay up.

On a different note, Ron what are programmer/operators earning in the UK at the moment? -just curious.

Dave

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Dave,

I understand your point, BUT, say Mastercam were to provide a "generic" 5 Axis post with the software, what configuration do they send? Each one is different.

------------------

James Meyette

[ronengineer]

A post for XYZ and any two from ABC in ISO would be nice. At least we could see for ourselves. Thanks for the comments guys.

[Charles Davis]

IMHO, the idea of a separate config file that has a switch to set the machine configuration, and variables for the different rotation limits and distances between axis, is the way to go.

Given that info, MCAM should output the right values, and all you should have to do if format.

The info from the config file could also go to drive a "generic" 5-axis simulation.

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 05-04-2001).]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

ronengineer,

I meant which machine configuration (see my post about machine configurations above)not just axis designations. There is a huge difference between Axis designations and machine configurations. I can think of at least 5 possible combinations.

------------------

James Meyette

hey webby - I need spell check.

[This message has been edited by James Meyette (edited 05-05-2001).]

[Multax]

Dear Mastercam users,

I have followed the thread on five axis post-processors with some interest and the way to improve Mastercam's post-processor user friendliness requires CNC Software to implement a feature used by a competing CAM product in addition to their upcoming graphical post builder. The OTHER CAM software's post processor offers the ability to use "option files" to interpret the specific instruction format expected by any CNC controller. A variety of option files already exists within their post-processor, and the user can customize them.

Mr. Meyette states that Mastercam cannot provide a "generic" five axis post that covers all machine types. That is correct, however, it begs the question, why can't CNC Software provide a generic post for each type of five axis machine. For example, of all the five axis machines built, sold, and used in the U.S. since 1965, whether by domestic or foreign machine tool bulders. Bostomatic and Cincinnati have built more of those machines than any U.S. company, and perhaps, more than all other machine tool builders combined. In this time period, Cincinnati Machine has produced four basic styles of five axis machines, vertical profilers & gantries, horizontals, and the new V5 2000 & 3000 verticals. Bostomatic has built one style of five axis machine that has changed little in twenty years. As an example, CNC Software could produce a five axis post for Cincinnati Machines that asks the programmer what type of five axis machine and Acramatic CNC controller the machine has, and based on these two questions, the post would output the correct code.

I hope that CNC Software listens and acts upon ALL of the comments and suggestions given in this thread to improve Mastercam!!!

The basic five axis machine types include: head/head, table/table, head/table, nutating head, and nutating table.

[This message has been edited by Multax (edited 05-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Multax (edited 05-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Multax (edited 05-07-2001).]

[ronengineer]

Hi to all,

Well it would seem that we are not the only users who feel that CNC have an issue to address here.

Multax has summed it up perfectly (respect is due Multax).

Thanks go to Darren (ex LaBour Pumps boyz gotta stick together).

 

[Shaping]

Hi Ron,

Welcome to the hasssles of 5 axis machining.

We purchased the Mastercam software based on the brochures etc.

18 months later we finally got our post to work in a commercial environment, with some on going bug fixes.

Our machine is a gantry mill. What other people are saying is all rubbish about different configurations.

I would be only to please to give you advice or even give you a copy of our program but I am not prepared to put this out to the open market as you could well understand. We also have written a lot of Visual Basic add ons to make up for the shortcall in Mastercam.

Our email address is [email protected]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

 

Quote from Shaping:

________________________________________

"Our machine is a gantry mill. What other people are saying is all rubbish about different configurations."

________________________________________

This potentially a very dangerous statement and should not be taken seriously.

------------------

James Meyette

[ronengineer]

Well we have stirred up a hornets nest haven't we. If there are any other users out there that are following this one and haven't posted yet lets hear your opinions.

Lets have a users poll, just answer the following ;

Q1) Do you think that Mastercam should have supplied several 5 axis posts with their systems as Multax's suggestion?

Q2) Do you think that Mastercam should market 5 axis as an additional entity with a package price for a post generator, extra toolpaths and full solid verification?

Q3) If so, what would be a fair price?

my answers are yes, yes, £3000 (negotiable!)

Dealers are welcome to comment but please state that you are a dealer.

[Kenneth Potter]

Oh snap !!!!

I have been following this tread for some time. And as a 5Axis newbie 6 months ago struggling to learn with the limited support doucumentation (manuals & tutorials). I have felt the frustration of it all before the light bulb turned on for me.& I,m still learning

 

OK hears my opinion,

Q1)yes Q2)yes Q3)no mad: comment !

Love this forum !!!

[This message has been edited by Kenneth Potter (edited 05-12-2001).]

[cadcam]

Hi Ron, now I think we are talking.

I look forward to the answers that come from this post.

I think we should state that in the beginning and talk about an added price for post and & graphical support.

------------------

jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

cnc programming &

Predator reseller

email: [email protected]

web: www.ppcadcam.com

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

In addition to ronengineer's question, I'd like to pose one more.

Q: What CAD/CAM System out there that does 5 Axis gives posts away for FREE?

A: None

If you go buy some 5 Axis Packages, in addition for paying out the wazzoo for the software, you get nothing. Shoot you don't even own it. If you don't keep your MANDATORY maintenence, the software shuts down. How's that for productivity. If you buy any of the High End packages, the same pretty much applies. Shoot, if you go buy one of Mastercam's competitors, they charge for more than one or two posts. Yeah that's the right direction to go. Uh huh.

Say you were to buy a prominent Mastercam competitor (That starts with an "S"), you not only HAVE to keep up your MANDATORY maintenance or you get no upgrades/updates but you have to pay for posts as well. Roughly the same as you do for Mastercam's.

So, to say that Mastercam should send generic 5 Axis posts with every seat of Mill Level 3 is insane. The main reasons have been outlined already. The other reason that I think it is a bad idea is say a user picks the post that most closely resembles his/her machine configuration (yes it does matter contrary to Shape's opinion), then things seem to be going allong fine then their machine crashes because a vector was not mapped correctly due to some sublte differences in the machine type/control or any number of variables. Then the once proud owner of one half to one million dollar machine is now the disgusted owner of a one half to one million dollar boat anchor that needs $50k (USD) in repairs that are not covered under the warranty because crashes are not covered. That person is going to want to come after Mastercam. Some may think I am trying to make excuses but the bottom line is 5 Axis is not a "One Size Fits All" technology. Period. End Of Story.

If memory serves me correctly, Version 7 did not give you 5 axis verification for free (It was around $4k USD for 4 Axis and about $5k USD). Version 8 does, granted it is not True Solid. Maybe you need to speak with your dealer about True Solid Verification for 5 Axis.

 

That's all I have to say about that.

------------------

James Meyette