Selecting Machines

[e-Kinfolk]

Back 50 years ago when I was educated, engineers learned the machinist skills as well as the theory. The thinking was that “an engineer can’t design something well if he doesn’t know how to build it himself.” (Sorry for the proper pronoun ladies, the quote comes from half a century ago.) During all those years I also had a home shop where I could work on my inventions.

 

Now I am retired, but I’m still an inventor and I wish to re-establish my home machine shop and put the skills I honed over 50 years to work on a fulltime basis. However, in recent years, because of international moves, etc., all of my major machines are gone. Therefore, I need to buy machines to outfit my shop.

 

For starters, I need a precision toolroom type lathe of about 9" x 20" capacity, in reasonably good condition. The lathe must be capable of cutting threads (with-or-without a quick-changed gear box), have both cross and compound slides, a tailstock, take 5C collets, and have ways that are straight and true.

 

Also, I need a milling machine. The mill must have at least 20-1/2” X-axis by 8-1/2” Y-axis travel capacity and have micro Z-axis travel. I do not need power feeds, but I would prefer that it have an R8 or M3 spindle with high speed capabilities as I expect to use mills down to 0.005” in diameter. It may be a CNC mill as I expect that is where I will end up.

 

Neither of the machines will be expected to do production work nor do I have to meet deadlines. I do not need digital read-outs, although they would be a plus. I am willing to do some restoration work, but am not interested in any machine that has been abused or neglected or probably ones that have already been restored. I like precise quality work and expect to be able to work to 0.0005” tolerances or better when I need to, so after restoration and/or modification the machines must be capable of precision work.

 

From what I can find on the Internet, new precision lathes and mills are very expensive, so they are probably out. This leaves me with some of the older precision lathes and mills. Examples of what I mean for a lathe are the Wade 8A and the Rivett 608. There are undoubtedly others out there and I am still looking, especially for appropriate mills. It is my hope that some of you can suggest machines by make and model. Even if the machine was not quite up to “precision” specs I would still be interested if it can be made to do what I want to do. I’m also hoping .you will point me toward were I can find them.

 

I know that some of you are going to ask me what my budget is. The answer is, it depends on the lathe and the mill, what it includes, and the condition, so for round numbers I’ll say somewhere in the $1,000 to $3,000 range each and more for a CNC mill. This amount does not need to include the tooling costs. I have a lot of small tools and tooling still from my former shop, so I will need primarily what is specific to the particular machine.

 

I look forward to your responses.

[chris m]

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I’ll say somewhere in the $1,000 to $3,000 range

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I'd say start cruising the auctions in your area and hope to catch something because that is really short dough; I have vises that cost more than that...

 

C

[Harryman]

Precision costs, you just aren't going to get much for $3000. We have a pretty tired Monarch tool room lathe laying around. We paid $12,000 for it about 7 years ago. Prices were higher then than now.

 

Welcome to the forum. Please keep stopping by. You never know how you might meet someone here and get something cool going.

[[email protected]]

There are used machine tool dealers in Denver that have rows and rows of what you are looking for. Email me if you want the ones worth going to.

 

I went to ebay.com and typed in lathe. 2669 items popped up. I clicked on "highest priced" and then on page "3". That got to the lathes that are in your price range.

 

Since you are in the Mastercam forum, I would highly suggest that you get a mill that has a CNC control. There are some great deals out there if you can swing $10k to $20k for a Fadal, Haas or many other brands. The CNC control allows you do do soooo many more things. Ten years ago, I sold almost my whole manual machine shop just to get the down payment for a CNC mill. It was the best thing that I ever did.

 

Larry

 

[ 02-07-2004, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: [email protected] ]

[Harryman]

Howdy Larry.

 

Where are you in Denver? The web link shows a pretty well equiped shop.

 

I have an uncle in Commerce City, a rifle shot from one of the machine marts out there. Might like to look you up next time I'm out that way.

[e-Kinfolk]

Thank you all for your responses. Sadly, you all seem to be painting a pretty dismal picture for me and seem to be saying that what I want is beyond my reach. Why can’t I take a manual mill and put in some ball screws, mount some steppers or servo motors, and connect them to the electronics? This would give me a CNC mill out of a manual one. For a business, one would really have to be struggling to do that, but I’m a retired guy just wanting to work on my own projects. Am I on the wrong forum? You all seem to be business owners with the recourses to buy what you need.

[jimspac]

You can retrofit a manual mill with ballscrews and build a PC based controll with steppers. AHHA last time I checked outlined a cost of around $4000 for electronics, steppers, and software. You would have to build motor mounts, config the PC, and hook it all up. Much sweat equity involved, and AHHA is supportive.

 

www.ahha.com

[e-Kinfolk]

Hi All,

 

If anyone would like to suggest any good dealers within a days trip around Kansas City (Wichita would be good) I would appreciate their names, locations, e-mail, or web sites. Also, since this is a CNC forum, I’ll tell all of you that I intend doing a CNC conversion on the machines if I can’t find ones already equipped within shooting distance of $3,000. That is not a hard number, but a just a target. Doing the conversion myself will cost $2,000 to $4,000 unless I also build the circuits myself (yes I can do it) and find the servos or steppers at an auction. However, we can get into that later if I do get into doing a CNC conversion.

 

For now, I want to tell you that I appreciate all of you taking your time to offer your replies. I also started the same tread on 3 other Forums and collectively there have been some helpful suggestions. When a lathe is mentioned the Rivett 608 is favored most often, but there have been some other ideas I feel are worth pursuing as well. When a milling machine is mentioned the Deckel FP-1 is favored most often, there have also been some other thoughts as well.

 

In all my years I have never seen a Rivett 608, but I have heard of them. As I understand it, Rivett stopped production in 1970 and some of them were available with 5C collets. As for price I have been told to expect somewhere between $500 and $3,000, depending on condition and local demand. So a Rivett 608 seems like a good possibility.

 

I know something about Deckel FP-1 and FP-2 milling machines (I lived in Germany for 10 years) and they would handle most of my requirements well. The price again depends on location and condition, but ranges from about $1,000 to about $7,500. So they are a possibility if I am lucky.

 

However, there are some other lathes that I understand are worth watching out for. I would like to learn more about the Wade 8A, 94 and 98, and the Weiler Condor VS and W, LS-300, and Matador as they may be possibilities also. I would very much like to hear your opinions and any other suggestions that you might have (please!), but I don’t want to start a controversy. The Hardinge HLV-H and the Acra, Eisen, Gromax, and Wilton copies are all out of range as is the Monarch 10EE. Are any of the lathes, such as, Kirloskar Smoga, Gujarat 1050/1, and Rimex C8C or others Taiwan or China of precision toolroom type even worth thinking about? Their prices are in range, but what of their quality?

 

The Deckle FP series is a universal mill with a lot of capabilities because of all the interchangeable parts, as are the Aciera F1 and F2, Thiel 58, 158 and 159, and Van Norman 12 and 16. While I don’t want to start a controversy, I would very much appreciate your opinions of their relative merits. If there are others with similar capabilities that you think I should also consider, please let me know.

 

To handle the “20-1/2” X-axis by 8-1/2” Y-axis travel capacity” that I specified, I am thinking of the LatheMaster ZAY7045FG “Heavy Duty Dovetail Column [Gear Driven] Benchtop Milling Machine.” The larger capacity requirement is for very easily machined materials, so I think this 700 pound benchtop mill should be able to handle it fine.

 

Well I feel that this question is beginning to get sorted out. I know that there will always be those that have a particular preference and that is fine, but the majority of you probably lean in one direction. That information is useful for me to know, as I have not seen or used all of these various machines. There are also others like me that would like your informed expert opinions as a lathe and a mill are so basic to any metal shaping activity. I appreciate your replies and I believe that many others do as well. Because I am asking the same questions on several forums I will finally collect all of the opinions and post a report for everybody to profit from.

[Keith Graydon]

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expect to use mills down to 0.005” in diameter

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I would stongly suggest a power feed if you will be using tiny cutters.

 

-Keith

[Kevangel]

If you want to hold tight tol. on lathe put a .0001(.0002 on the diameter )and .0002 on the Z-axis digital readout on it. This will register actual tool movement and eliminate stick slip issues on a cheaper machine. I would rather have a well tooled cheap machine than an expensive machine with no tooling, if money is tight for awhile. Also there are incredible buys in machine tools right (used) do not be in a hurry while you learn market (go to machinetool.com) I would buy a bridgeport mill with a .0002 readout and add a Moore # 3 Jig Bore (gotta be # 3 -has double v ways) for .0001 hole positions and "light precision milling" seen several for asking price of less than $3,000 in Ohio. Some real bargains in Ohio... Mohawk machinery in cinncinatti, Advanced Machinery in Dayton, there is a liquidation type place in cleveland real low cost ,machinery something I think? can't think of exact name,all have web pages and prices. The world has really change price wise in last 3 years.

[Harryman]

Given your willingness to look at all options, you might just start kicking around as many used equipment places as you can to see what lights your bulb.

[e-Kinfolk]

Thank you for your suggestions. I will look into the dealers and the tooling.

 

A guy I have been corresponding with has a “Bridgeport clone with CNC controls - probably late 80's or early 90's” for “$1,000 firm,” but in unknown condition. There is also a Deckel FP3 with CNC in “very good condition,” but I haven’t gotten a price yet. It will probably be high. As all of you are much more into CNC than I am, please tell me what questions would you ask? I am concerned about getting CNC controls for which there is no longer parts and support available. I’m also concerned about getting a worn out abused machine.

 

I’m not in any rush so I can be patient, keep checking around and finally get a good deal.

[Racer X]

I used to run Deckels. They are pretty neat machines.

 

If you get the FP3, it should have both horizontal and vertical heads and each has a quill with roughly 3 inches of travel. You just unscrew 4 cam lock screws in the head and tip it sideways to reveal the horizontal spindle.

 

Plus it should have both horizontal and vertical tables with it. Not really what I would call a stout machine but really versatile.

 

If memory serves me correctly they are a gear driven spindle and max 6300 rpm.

 

This is also probably a mid to late 80s machine since it is before they merged and became Deckel Maho. Probably has the Grundig Dialog control which has some really nice canned cycles in it.

 

I really miss running Deckels.

[e-Kinfolk]

Thank you for your reply. As was suggested earlier I'm going to visit dealers to see if anything lights my bulb. Also, I'm going to continue researching machines that might fill my needs. I find some interesting machines, but then I search for one anywhere in the world and most of the time I come up dry. Hardinge lathes are easy to find, but hard to pay for.

 

There seem to be quite a number of CNC mills at reasonable prices. If I buy an undervalued CNC mill and get it working, what is it that a Deckel mill can do that a CNC mill can’t do, other that be a horizontal mill? There are certainly things a CNC mill can do that a Deckel can’t.

[Racer X]

Actually, I was referring to Deckel FP3NC mill in my post. I assumed that is what you were speaking of when you said

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There is also a Deckel FP3 with CNC in “very good condition,” but I haven’t gotten a price yet. It will probably be high.

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The manual mills are nice. But, really not much more than a glorified Bridgeport.