Budgie--If it has a B axis upper tool turret, it is the Super NTJ, if it has a tool changing spindle(Mazak Integrex, Okuma, Mori), than it could be a number of different models including their Super NTX or Super NTM. Check out their VERY limited website at: http://www.nakamura-tome.co.jp/Top.htm

Millman, I saw the Haas VF2SS and I assume it's the same as the 4 but smaller. I don't think for the money you could beat it. I was surprised at how quick it was in both rapids, tool change, and chip to chip. The feed rates were also impressive. I believe that your in a good position in that the lower dollar machines have and can make great strides in speed, and yet still stay resonably priced, and in most cases, lower than they were a few years ago when they were so much less expensive. The higher end Jap. machines can't make the leaps and bounds that Haas can from year to year, as the technology can not keep up. For example: Haas can double their feeds and speeds almost every 3 years, you won't find a Jap. machine that can say that. Granted a Haas will not hold up compared to the Jap. equipment, but dollar for dollar, they are making huge inroads. In fact, Haas is really taking a huge portion of these Jap. companies revenue. The proof is how so many of them in the last few years have come out with "lower dollar lines"(Makino 1 series, for example), or have replaced their high end machines with less expensive machines all together(Mori Seiki NH5000). I have several Haas machines, and they got me started, so I can't complain too much, but I can say I'm looking forward to the transition to the Jap. reliability. Peace!!

Chris--I'm sorry to hear about your Integrex situation. I looked at Mazak, and came so close to buying one, I even put 20K deposit down. But in the end, I just could not get over all the bad stories I heard. I've been told Mazak has the latest technology, and all the "bell's and whistle's" to go along with it, but I had so many shops tell me your same story concerning machines coming in, and than going right back out the door. I have three shops here in my area with nothing but major problems with their Mazak's. One guy explained it to me this way: "The newer Mazak equipment is the Japanese version of Haas". Please do not take that the wrong way. He wasn't saying all Mazak's are bad, he was just upset that it appears Mazak introduces 20 new machines of every variety each year, and does not do enough real world testing before selling them to the public. Haas does the same thing, but at least you probably won't go out of business because the machine won't perform. I'd go crazy if I spent 300-400K on a Mazak Intergex and had the problems that you describe. I really feel for you. I hope my Nakamura doesn't let me down. I can honestly say I haven't heard a bad thing from anyone about Nakamura's, and I hope this holds true. As for the Capto tooling, I just spent 60K on adapters, heads, and inserts, but I will keep you in mind if I decide I need more. And yes, the control is Fanuc 18I. Thanks for the offer. What exactly was your problems with the Mazak?? [ 10-20-2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: DrewG ]

Andrew--As far as the preset information, I understand everything you are talking about. We have worked with Makino as well as Zoller(Presetter Manufacturer) and Cimquest for both communications and post's. I am currently working with the guys up at Method's on the Nakamura specific's. Once we move(approx.45 days), I will have all parties involved(the Manufacturer's--Makino,Nakamura,Zoller,Cimquest) working together to make sure the post's, program's, and communications are all in order. I plan on running all the equipment for several weeks or month's before I will sign off on the acceptance letters. This means that if there are problems, and things do not work as represented, no one gets paid. You'll be amazed how fast you receive customer service response when your holding onto their payment. As I told every dealer's salesman, manufacturer's rep.'s, etc..when I put my downpayment forward, "I can be the best promoter for a company, or the worst". You better make sure before you sell me something, that it will perform as advertised. If not, you will not be paid. So far, I must say every company has responded favorable. I will keep you informed in the future as everything starts coming together. I'm not unrealistic, and I do expect some growing pains. I also try understand that my programmers/operators are not magician's and can't perform miracles. The fact that we have had only one crash in the shop in 7 years say's alot. You won't find "jaws" all beat up with holes, or tool marks on them here. First and foremost here is prove, prove, and reprove the program before you hit the "green go" button. I also try and involve myself in every facet of my associates jobs, so I can best understand their needs and concerns. When I purchased M/C I purchased all the training for myself so I could have a better understanding why some things take so long. I went out to Makino for all the training on the cell controller, as I wanted to be able to understand the problems associated with this new technology. I will also spend 7 days in training with the Zoller company to better understand all the presetter information. And when I purchase Solidworks, and either Partmaker or Esprit, I will go thru that training as well. I believe that the more I understand about my associates positions, the better they respond. I would've loved in my old job if my boss took the time to really understand my position, and how long and difficult some jobs are. I hated when the boss would just throw a job across my desk at 4pm and expect it done before I went home, like it was a 30 minute job, when in reality it was 3 hours. I do admit I'm extremely lucky in the fact that the parts we manufacture and the mark up's involoved allow us to spend the extra money and time to do things differently than, say a jobshop for instance. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to try and incorporate some of my idea's and equipment if I was competing in this economy against shops working as low as $35.00 an hour. I would absolutely die. I will keep all informed concerning the Partmaker and Esprit software decision. Thanks!!!

Harry, I will let you know shortly how I make out. The machine is set to be installed right before, or just after Thanksgiving. I printed out a copy of your post so I remember to ask alot of questions. Andrew, this machine will run hundred's of different parts(I hope). It will probably run a different part almost every day, granted alot of the parts we run belong to a "family" of parts. Luckily, its 99% aluminum, and we went with Capto quick change tooling for all the static tools, and HSK40A quick change Alberti heads for all the live tools, in order to try and become more efficient. We will preset all our tooling offline so that change overs should be very quick. We couldn't afford to lose an hour a day or every other day swapping tools. I'm hoping the programming doesn't ultimately hold us down now. I suppose I fell somewhat for the tech guy's up at the dealer programming and saying "how easy it is". We'll see.

Millman--You are correct about the need for both the software companies and the machine tool manufacturer's to get together on these types of machines. In M/C defense, I read in their last mini-paper(the thing I receive from M/C in the mail)about how they are working with actual users of these machines up in Mass. or CT to build the software to be the best on the market. From what I've heard, they will succeed. I'm just disappointed that they decided to "put it on hold". Oh well. I'll have to bite the bullet and spend the coin twice. Does anyone know if you can resell your software? I mean if I purchase Esprit now, and want to buy M/C's version next year, can I legally sell my Esprit? Or does it become useless???? Thanks!!

Hardmill--I looked at Yasda, but for the type of machining I was looking for, they didn't have the right machine. They are awesome though. I looked at the Yasda YBM600N, but the maximum rapids of 945 IPM, and feed rates of 196 IPM seemed to give up too much to the Makino A66E's 2953 IPM rapids and 2126 IPM feed rates. I also looked at their YBM6T. What an awesome piece of equipment!!! Twin ballscrews on every axis, and a weight of over 42,000lbs say's it all. The rapids were still only 1900 IPM and feed max of 590 IPM, but the accuracy is incredable. If you need super accuracy, I would agree: the Yasda line probably can't be beat. For my applications however, accuracy isn't that importent. I needed a super quick machine for mass producing aluminum parts that would run day after day mostly pocketing and contouring billet aluminum. Very similar to the aerospace applications, and to me, Makino offered the best in HSK63A, 20K, 40 taper spindles, as well as fastest chip to chip, tool to tool, G accel./decel., and one of the best FMS pallet cells. If I was doing large mold work, or extremely high tolerance work, the Yasda appears to be the king.

Pete, thanks for your response. I would like to go with who's ever is easiest to learn, and price may weight in as well, as I'm sure we will purchase the M/C version whenever it becomes available. I had it all planned with the machine purchase as my M/C dealer told me the software would be available early '04, however now that that's not the case, I'm forced to purchase something soon, and get up and running with it quickly. Method's Machine Tools is where I purchased the equipment, and they utilize both companies software, and they were pushing Partmaker. I'll have to see both. On that note, how does Esprit compare to Mastercam in general??? I didn't look at it when I purchased M/C earlier this year. Thanks!!!

Millman--I consider most of the Japanese milling/turning manufacturer's--ala. Mori Seiki, Matsuura, Okuma, Yasda, Makino, etc...to be right up at the top. I'm sure everybody has there own opinion as to what constitutes "the best", for me, it also has alot to do with the age of the equipment. For example, depending upon the type of machining being performed, a new Super VF2 Haas could be considered alot better than a 1995 Mori Seiki performing HSM. I'm fortuanate enough to be able to provide '03 Makino's for milling, with MMC2 pallet cell, '03 Nakamura Tome for multitasking, Zoller presetters, etc.. and just about anything else that will make my programmers and operators lives easier and more motivating. I find that people in general perform better when they are able to utilize the "latest and greatest" so to speak. This is just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

Millman, There are at least two companies that I know of making software to run these types of machines--Partmaker and Espirit. You can use most CAM software including M/C to run these as well. The difference is being able to syncronize the turrets and spindles to get the most efficient, quickest machining done and have the parts come off the fastest. If we use M/C, we will have to program each spindle separately, and than cut and paste the program together. We would not be able to take advantage of utilizing two turrets on one spindle if the part was heavily "one sided" for example, and be able to have one turret move back over to work second op's efficiently. It would be alot of adjusting on the machine and would entail a long set up time. With the correct software(ala Partmaker/Esprit), all this can be done off line and would also prevent most crashes. As for paying guys 10.00 an hour to program these $300-$400,000.00 machines, not here. I pay top dollar to the right people. It's still less expensive to pay top dollar to one great programmer getting finished parts off this type of machine in one operation, than to have several programmers and several operators running the same part that would need anywhere from 4-8 operations on standard milling and turning machines.

Budge--What type of multi tasking machine did you buy, and what type of work are you planning for it?? Just striking up a conversation. Peace!!

James, that's what I was talking about when I said "M/C has put it on the backburner". My reseller said the same as you--"It will be the very best mill/turn syncronization software available". But now that it is put on hold for a year or so, I can't wait. I'm sure I will buy it when it is available, however I need something to get by until than. I don't like the idea of cutting and pasting as I want to be able to see collisions on the screen rather than hear them coming from the machine(LOL). I've heard good things about both Espirit and Partmaker, and was hoping someone has experience with either. Anyone?? Thanks!!!!!

Anyone in the Central New Jersey area with similar credentials? I just posted two positions(Milling & Turning) on the Mastercam website yesterday. I could use either full time or part time help. Top pay and possible relocation expenses for the right person. Please check my add on Mastercam's website(it might take up to 7 days for M/C to post it, as I just added it Saturday 10/18), or e-mail me directly for details. Solidworks knowledge would be a plus, as everything we manufacture must be designed and reverse engineered. If your a "team player" looking to work for a small, very fast growing company manufacturing our own line of aftermarket motocycle components, utilizing the absolute latest top of the line equipment, please e-mail me for details.

Try Delrin. It is great to machine, always breaks the chip. I'm not sure what you consider expensive, but Delrin is considerably more than UMHW, but alot less than Teflon. You'll probably pay about 6.00 a foot for a 1.750 bar. It is the best, least expensive plastic to machine I've ever tried. It also looks like it's been molded when machined. Very little tool marks. Try it, I bet you'll be amazed.

I've always been a coolant nut trying over 20 different manufacturer's coolant's through out the years, and have finally decided to stick with Castrol products. I've tried semi-synthetics, full synthetics, and straight water based coolants, and in our shop, Castrol always comes out on top. The reason I tried others after using Castrol, was cost. I find Castrol's products to be the most expensive out there, however after trying so many others, I believe there must be a difference. Also, I don't believe you can find another manufacturer that makes so many different types of coolant than Castrol. I swear they have a coolant for every situation. They must have at least 50 different versions or more. Call Castrol customer service and speak with a rep. They can guide you through all the variations and get you out a sample to try. They will even send a rep. down to your shop to oversee the whole project if necessary. There customer service is second to none. On another note, if your using high pressure coolant systems, you'll really appreciate some of the Castrol products. Depending upon the product, they offer some of the least foaming coolants out there. I just purchased two Chipblaster HPC systems, and the guys out at Chipblaster were amazed at the low foaming of the Castrol Alusol A product I had to send them(I purchased Chipblaster's optional coolant concentrate controller and they have to send your coolant out to a lab to get some K factor ratings if they haven't set a machine up with your coolant). They also informed me that you can't just add a nonfoaming agent directly into your coolant with their HPC system, as their 1 and 5 micron filters will just pull the anti foaming agent out, and you'll have tons of foam. The above is just my experience with alot of different coolants. Hope it helps. [ 10-19-2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: DrewG ]

We have a Nakamura Tome Super NTJ(9 axis, with rotating B axis) Mill/Turn machine coming in the end of November and need software for it. I was very disappointed to learn Mastercam has just put their new Multi-Tasking software on the "backburner". I was originally told it would be ready for release early '04, however I just learned they have put the program on hold in order to put all their efforts into version 10. It will not be released until very late '04 or early '05. I realize we can use Mastercam for programming individual spindle's, however in order to utilize this type of equipment to the fullest we need software that enables syncronization of the spindles/turrets. I'm now forced into looking at "Esprit" and "Partmaker", both of which offer syncronization. My questions are: Has anyone here ever used either? How easy are either to learn compared to M/C? What does a seat and training sell for? Any input would greatly be appreciated. I was so happy when I was originally told about the M/C software, as it sounds like it will reign supreme just like the rest of M/C products. Thanks in advance!!

Come out and just say it "you're an Ottawa fan", nothing wrong with it. The money situation is always the same for every Canadian team in all sports. I guess they don't have the "cable money" that the American teams negotiate from the companies to carry their games.

"I would've rather seen the Sens in the final round since they're a team built the old fahsioned way...through the draft and not high-priced aquisitions" Please, don't try and make the Devil's out to be the Yankee's or Rangers. If there's one owner who WON'T overpay for a player, and gets the most out of his players, it's Lou Lamarillo. Just look at how many players that came up and were stars from this organization, that he let go because they wanted more money, ala players like Jason Arnott and Bobby Holik for example. DEVIL'S HOCKEY IS ALL ABOUT THE TEAM, NOT ANY INDIVIDUAL PLAYER. Have you ever seen a less selfish player than Scott Stevens? People complain about the way the Devil's play hockey(ALL DEFENSE--boring), but you can't argue their success. Most people who complain--ala Flyer's fan's, who of course the Devil's own, and Ranger fan's, who refuse to rebuild a year or two, and want instant gratification, and expect a cup every year, just don't get it. Hockey success is based on players with an s, not usually one guy. "LET's GO DEVIL'S!!!!" Devil's in 6!!!

"some intermitent noises and very hot to the touch 185 + degrees in our case.. and the tool holderstuck in the taper lots of fun to get out BANG!!!!" DITTO!!!!ONLY REPEAT THE BANG!!!

That Haas design for cooling the spindle is a joke!!!!! We run nothing but aluminum, and almost always at full rpm, either 7500 ot 10,000 depending on the machine, and the spindle gets real hot. Been thru 2 of them already. You have to do just like Rekd said, point a nozzle or two directly on the spindle to keep it cool. God forbid your running a 60RC mold and want to use air and no coolant with small tools, the thing would probably glow red. Haas should have some sort of refrigerant chiller like almost every other comapny has. I mean even Fadal has a chiller for their spindle and ballscrews. It can't be that expensive!!!

James--What type of tool recognition are you using with the 4 digit codes. Im trying to come up with a system that will give the operator some type of familiarity with what the tool number means. Out at Makino they gave us a few example's like the following example: 1st Digit = Tool type(Endmill, Facemill, drill,etc.) 2nd Digit = material type for a tool(1=steel/2=aluminum, etc.) 3rd digit = carbide or steel, number of flute's, etc... 4th digit = ITN I find it much easier employing an 8 digit code than the 4 digit that I chose. How are you working your FTN numbers???? Thanks!!

Me too. I'm a "chip sweeper" also.

James, or anyone else out there who uses a cell controller--I need to come up with a good tool identification system for my FTN(functional tool numbers). I had the choice of 4 or 8 digit tool codes, and I chose 4. Looking back, I kind of wished I went with the 8 digit codes. It would've been alot easier to come up with a system that made sense. I was hoping maybe someone here might have a good system that works real well. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

We use this size endmill everyday in our Haas's, both the 7500 and the 10,000's. It does run faster in the 10,000's, however we usually don't have any problems in either. Make sure you have plenty of coolant on the endmill, and you might try running the mixture on the heavier side. It helps alot for us. It won't be the fastest, but if you don't have alot of work for it, don't bother spending the money on a spindle rpm increaser. If you plan on doing this job alot, the increaser is the way to go. One last point, alot of the time's when we break these small endmills it's because a chip got stuck in the spindle. If you have the standard Haas rotary tool changer(not the outside, swingarm optional changer) and run alot of aluminum at high feeds and speeds like we do, you will undoubtedly get chips up in the changer that will stick to some of the tools taper, and end up in the spindle. Make sure you clean the spindle frequently.

" You can probably get something to fit inside there that way after the tool is used, you can check it before it goes back into the rack. " That's exactly what I want to do if possible. The BTSOMA option from Makino does just this, however because it's a contact type, it will break small tools. I'm clad you gave me some input with regard to Marposs. I will definitely try and buy something from them if possible. I put a call into their office, and they directed me towards my local rep. He was already gone for the day(holiday weekend, understandable), but should get back to me next week. Thanks, James!!!