Defining A Vintage Motion Master SB 55 (5Axis) with Fagor 8055 Controller In Mastercam

[CNC_Newbie]

Hi folks. I am deep into learning to run this old Motion Master SB55 (5 Axis CNC) with Fagor 8055 controllers.  I work at a Thermo Plastics company and we mount 3D molded plastic parts to fixtures and cut the parts from the excess materials left in the forming/molding process. We put holes, cut outs, notches, radiuses, slots, ect, ect into the parts while vacuumed down to the fixture on a table that moves on the X axis, the gantry does Y on a long ball screw, the Z is moved via an Air ram, and B and C are geared. 

 

I am pretty new to all of this, however I am learning fast. Basilly inside the Fagor controller lives a CAM software of sorts and one basically programs parts to run in the termal using "profiles" where you define parameters, it has canned G Codes, and you use the terminal to program all the parts. Then use Offsets in the terminal to control various blocks of code  (G54, G55, G56, G57, G58, ect)  you can spend all day trying to set up a part based on these offsets. Each job has a folder and bacilly you open the file and it defines the tool size and stick out, the fixture placement (some of the times they dont note this), then you are supposed to type in all the offsets  from the previous run and tweak based on whatever is needed to make a grindable part. Its really a dated system, imo, but they make parts for many big companies.

 

Now on to mastercam. They have a seat of mastercam 2020, and they had a fellow spend a couple of weeks poking around in the software and he was able to program a 3D model in to tool paths and post it. However he never really defined the machine in any sort of great detail. He said he just input center axis points and distances to defne the machine. I am not exactly how defied the tool paths, he used faces of the model in some places, chains in other, he used lines in some places, I am sure this is pretty normal stuff. However when he posts the file, he has to spend an hour or so stripping stuff out of the Gcode. I think he must of removed 100 G53 codes among others.

 

I am wondering if part of the code that is being posted that has to be taken away is because he didn't define the machine correctly in mastercam? I am still doing tutorials daily at home in mastercam, and I know just enough to be asking these Stupid questions as I fight to bring this 5 Axis Antique into the modern times.

Lastly, is it possible when taking programs down from the Fagor 8055 back into the PC to lose lines of Gcode?  If so, like hs says happens," Alot", how does one backup all of the actual working files that live at the controller terminal?   The way we move files up and down between the PC and the Controller is via a Program called WINDNC, and it's like working in windows 3.2. They have a RS232 port to a cable that runs to the Controller, and on the PC side they have a RS232 adapter to USB.  Personally I think an Arduino, Rambo, or TinyG controller has more horsepower when it comes to computing, but this is a whole other can of worms,

I am so sorry for the long drawn out description of my situation. I just want to find out the best way to define this Hardware setup in mastercam so that when I make a post that I am not digging through the Gcode stripping out stuff that is going to stop my files from running.  I have seen in many Mastercam tutorials where the machines are defined, the head, the table, spindle, the tools, even the sheet metal cabinet workspace is defined so that when they slinging tools around in there is a defined safety space. Not to menton, you can play a simulation and see everything the tool is going to do to a stock model? Right?

I hope I am not asking to do the impossible here. I am just trying to give myself as much chance for success as I really try to learn this trade.  

I appreciate everyone who takes time to read this windy post and can try to help point me in the right direction. PS, please use the smallest spoon you have when feeding me information as I truly am a CNCNewbie

 

[crazy^millman]

Well you are correct 1990 methods to program parts at the machine. Why ti takes all day to setup a part. Not much more to say about that, but tell them for every hour your not running your wasting 2 hours. That day is setup is really 2 days.

Mastercam once dialed in should have no issues making programs for that machine. Mastercam is not a kinematic aware software when programming. The programmer has to be aware of the kinematics from the start. The G53 line are just a switch in the post or in the operation to run off and done takes about 2 minutes for your dealer to walk you through fixing that issue.

Yes depending on the length and shielding of the Rs-232 cable expect to see that kind of an issue. A like taking a6 foot Heavily Shielded cable and hooking up a laptop right next to the machine. Keep the baud rate lower than 19200 and you should be okay. Make sure the hand shaking and other things are configured correctly. Ideally you would find a Rs-232 I/o Board to throw in a tower and use a Win95 emulator to communicate with that old of a control again no more than 6 foot distance away from the machine. Make sure it is not some cheap Rs-232 ends on the cable either. Calmotion has some great stuff if they are still in business. Cimco is another resource for these things. 30+ years ago we had BTR(Behind the Tape Reader) units we would use to send the data to machine that still had the old tape readers on them. They must think about getting away from the Rs-232 and use a BCR(Behind the Cable Reader) unit and then you will never drop a line of code again. Yes this was what we ran into a lot 30+ years ago.

You welcome and I had the same attitude you have 30+ years ago when I got into the trade and yes I used Win 3.1 on a daily bases back then. I just threw out some old DOS and Fortran books not to long ago.

[CNC_Newbie]

I think I have a workaround for the Dropped File issues. There is no way I can get these folks to spend money or rewire this controller to bring the PC closer to controller. What I plan to do is simple. I will use the USB connection on the front of the terminal to put and pull down the files. It is so strange to me that the PC can send the files no problem, but pulling them down,"they lose lines". I MUST have a ROCK SOLID reliable way of putting up and taking down files. Especially when I get to the point of using mastercam solely to make edits to refine the tool paths during setups. I dont mind an offset or 2 to make simple corrections based on variance in the actual molded parts, but spending a day to a day in a half trying to break apart blocks of Gcode that arent notated/defined clearly and assigning different offsets to take control of a tool path that is clearly off in the program is ridiculously frustrating. 

 

5 hours ago, crazy^millman said:

The G53 line are just a switch in the post or in the operation to run off and done takes about 2 minutes for your dealer to walk you through fixing that issue.

Is there some sort of setup/parmenter's code that needs to be modified in mastercam that can only be addressed via the Software Dealer?  I see many simulations running in Youtube Mastercam Tutorial videos that show an animated 3D model representing the actual Machine and its parameters that are running the part programmed in mastercam. I see there are libraries that allow you to define the tool holder. We use a collet and a nut to hold the tooling (like a huge dual spindle router, it is a router on steroids). How do I define the actual Motion Master SB55 in  Mastercam? Also do I need to define the Fagor 8055 controller  as well and will this help with the G53 issue?   


I read in a different forum running a different software where some code (like python or something) had to be modded to fix the problem. Is this the kind of thing the dealer will have to help us with?
 

"Your control requires a #MCS block to move the axes to an absolute machine position rather than the G53 block.  You can change everywhere in the post that references 'gFormat.format(53)' to use "#MCS" instead.  There is one instance in the onSection function and 3 instances of this code in the onClose function.  Your changes will look like the following."

 

In onSection()

 

 writeBlock(gAbsIncModal.format(90), gFormat.format(53), gMotionModal.format(0), zOutput.format(machineConfiguration.getRetractPlane())); // retract
    

In onClose()

 

 writeBlock(gAbsIncModal.format(90), gFormat.format(53), gMotionModal.format(0), zOutput.format(machineConfiguration.getRetractPlane())); // retract
  
  zOutput.reset();

  setWorkPlane(new Vector(0, 0, 0)); // reset working plane

  if (!machineConfiguration.hasHomePositionX() && !machineConfiguration.hasHomePositionY()) {
     writeBlock(gAbsIncModal.format(90), gFormat.format(53), gMotionModal.format(0), "X" + xyzFormat.format(0), "Y" + xyzFormat.format(0)); // return to home
    
  } else {
    var homeX;
    if (machineConfiguration.hasHomePositionX()) {
      homeX = "X" + xyzFormat.format(machineConfiguration.getHomePositionX());
    }
    var homeY;
    if (machineConfiguration.hasHomePositionY()) {
      homeY = "Y" + xyzFormat.format(machineConfiguration.getHomePositionY());
    }
     writeBlock(gAbsIncModal.format(90), gFormat.format(53), gMotionModal.format(0), homeX, homeY);
    

[crazy^millman]

46 minutes ago, CNC_Newbie said:

I think I have a workaround for the Dropped File issues. There is no way I can get these folks to spend money or rewire this controller to bring the PC closer to controller. What I plan to do is simple. I will use the USB connection on the front of the terminal to put and pull down the files. It is so strange to me that the PC can send the files no problem, but pulling them down,"they lose lines". I MUST have a ROCK SOLID reliable way of putting up and taking down files. Especially when I get to the point of using mastercam solely to make edits to refine the tool paths during setups. I dont mind an offset or 2 to make simple corrections based on variance in the actual molded parts, but spending a day to a day in a half trying to break apart blocks of Gcode that arent notated/defined clearly and assigning different offsets to take control of a tool path that is clearly off in the program is ridiculously frustrating. 

 

Is there some sort of setup/parmenter's code that needs to be modified in mastercam that can only be addressed via the Software Dealer?  I see many simulations running in Youtube Mastercam Tutorial videos that show an animated 3D model representing the actual Machine and its parameters that are running the part programmed in mastercam. I see there are libraries that allow you to define the tool holder. We use a collet and a nut to hold the tooling (like a huge dual spindle router, it is a router on steroids). How do I define the actual Motion Master SB55 in  Mastercam? Also do I need to define the Fagor 8055 controller  as well and will this help with the G53 issue?   


I read in a different forum running a different software where some code (like python or something) had to be modded to fix the problem. Is this the kind of thing the dealer will have to help us with?
 

"Your control requires a #MCS block to move the axes to an absolute machine position rather than the G53 block.  You can change everywhere in the post that references 'gFormat.format(53)' to use "#MCS" instead.  There is one instance in the onSection function and 3 instances of this code in the onClose function.  Your changes will look like the following."

 

In onSection()

 

 writeBlock(gAbsIncModal.format(90), gFormat.format(53), gMotionModal.format(0), zOutput.format(machineConfiguration.getRetractPlane())); // retract
    

In onClose()

 

 writeBlock(gAbsIncModal.format(90), gFormat.format(53), gMotionModal.format(0), zOutput.format(machineConfiguration.getRetractPlane())); // retract
  
  zOutput.reset();

  setWorkPlane(new Vector(0, 0, 0)); // reset working plane

  if (!machineConfiguration.hasHomePositionX() && !machineConfiguration.hasHomePositionY()) {
     writeBlock(gAbsIncModal.format(90), gFormat.format(53), gMotionModal.format(0), "X" + xyzFormat.format(0), "Y" + xyzFormat.format(0)); // return to home
    
  } else {
    var homeX;
    if (machineConfiguration.hasHomePositionX()) {
      homeX = "X" + xyzFormat.format(machineConfiguration.getHomePositionX());
    }
    var homeY;
    if (machineConfiguration.hasHomePositionY()) {
      homeY = "Y" + xyzFormat.format(machineConfiguration.getHomePositionY());
    }
     writeBlock(gAbsIncModal.format(90), gFormat.format(53), gMotionModal.format(0), homeX, homeY);
    

The Machinesim is something different and the best one is tied to a Post purchased in tandem when first purchased. Not willing to spent $20 on a cable doubt they see the importance of spending the money to get a machinesim dialed in with a post. The raw machine sim helps to check collisions and other things, but without being tied to a post just not something I can trust 100%.

Each post has what are called misc reals and integers in them that are called up in each operation. The are switches that cotnrol the output of the posed code. They control many different things and G53, G54 or G92 home positions are normally controlled with a switch. Change that value and get completely different output. You can set other things related to the head start angles and home moves. Where again reaching out to your dealer is a huge benefit. When you or the other programmer have reached out to them what has been the response?

[CNC_Newbie]

12 minutes ago, crazy^millman said:

. Where again reaching out to your dealer is a huge benefit. When you or the other programmer have reached out to them what has been the response?

I have never reached out to anyone (dealer). I started this job only with zero knowledge of commercial CNC machines, or software used to produce tool paths. I am trying to teach myself as the other fellow is part time and its obvious he isn't willing to open his mind and share anything. I have built several hobby grade CNC machines, and use Open Source programs to model, generate The Gcode, and to drive he code to the machine via various controllers, Rambo, Tiny-G, Arduino, ect..  I have also done lots of 3D modeling and animations in C4D, Maya, Houdini, Blender, and sculpting in zBrush.    The commercial stuff is all new, but I am a fast learner. I walked into this job naver of touched anything and in 1 week I am running the machines, breaking up the code into offsets and manually making these old machines cut where I want them to,  I have also been doing Mastercam Tutorials every night since I have started (3 weeks now). and I am trying to get a handle on things so i dont have to keep fighting this old code via Offsets at the console.   

I want to take the programs down from the drive at the Controller/console and fix them in mastercam (the ones created in MC) and put them back.  As to the cable that runs to the machine, its like 60 feet away and it runs from an office through the metal trusses and drops down to the controller. I think using the USB at the controller will help deal with dropped Gcode (due to line loss I guess). Again its hard to understand how we can send a file and not lose lines of Gcode, yet when we retrieve the files from the controller/console it magically drops lines of code (supposedly). I just need to find a rock solid way to move files and not have to deal with unforeseen variables. 

Peeking through some paperwork in the desk at work, I do believe the place they bought the software from is QTE Manufacturing Solutions. I will reach out to them Monday and try to figure out what I need to do to strip the G53's from the post.   The reason the other part time fellow wont go into mastercam and fix the programs is it take him 20 mins to strip the code from the post each time so he just messes with the code editor at the console.   He's always in a rush, as he is only there for a couple of hours in the morning after he as already worked a full shift at his other job.  He's a nice guy, but he's already tired and it clear he wants to get the parts running and get home, (we have 2 machines).

The way the place has operated for years is get the parts cut out with 90% of the rough dimensions cut  with a .030 tolerance and grind/hand finish each part to get out out the door.  I just know I can do better and I am willing to learn what it takes to make things run correctly. All in all it has been a crash course in patience knowing that the sooner I learn the right way to fix these problems the easier things will go and the faster I can move up and train a button pusher to put on, cut, and take off a good part without having to fight tooth and nail to get setup and running. This place has amazing potential, someone just has to take ownership and learn, this is where I come in,

 

 

I just found this to help me explain the "Reals and Integers"   https://postability.com/miscvalues

 

[CNC_Newbie]

1 hour ago, crazy^millman said:

"Where again reaching out to your dealer is a huge benefit. When you or the other programmer have reached out to them what has been the response?"

I sent an email to the reseller and asked for few things. Thanks for taking time with me. You know that I JUST realized who you are! I told you I was doing lots of tutorials. It actually worse that, lol.  I have consuming mastercam content every waking moment for 3 weeks trying to catch up and just figure things out. That Logo in your profile, I knew I saw it somewhere. You have been doing this for 30 years! I loved every minute of "Ron Week"! That so called simple part was amazing. The use of "Dumbed Down" stock models is a fantastic idea! You are an INCREDIBLE library of knowledge, I cant believe that it's actually you responding to my posts here.  You said in the videos that you like to give back to the Trade and have been helping people in emastercam forums for a very long time (15 years is what I think you said).  I took so much from RON WEEK! How you took the 100 hour rough time to 40, how 1 scrapped part is worth 3 and why, How getting it right in the program is how to make money on the floor. I wish I knew more about Mastercam so I could of absorbed it better. I did save all those vids a playlist for safe keeping, I plan to watch them again and again.  Never having been exposed to Mastercam, I think I like your screen layout much better than the Ribbon. Ill learn based on the free tutorials and then decide if I want to try your layout scheme as it gives a much less cluttered main window. SHM, I still cant believe its you , thanks so much for taking time to help a complete newbie at CNC like me.   T

[crazy^millman]

No worries and glad to help anyone willing to learn. Keep pushing and trying and you will get it figured out.

Years ago I was newbie also and didn't have people willing help and teach me. I was the punk know it all kid so went through the school of hard knocks.

[So not a Guru]

23 hours ago, crazy^millman said:

I was the punk know it all kid so went through the school of hard knocks.

I think there's a lot of us on this forum who can identify with this.

[jjones61]

I just saw this post and thought I'd throw in my two cents worth!

The first 5 axis machine I ever programmed was an old Motion Master with a Fagor control (cutting plastic parts as well) and millman is correct, once you get your post configured correctly you'll be able to post programs that require very little if any editing.

As far as WinDNC goes, it does have kind of a dated interface but I've use it to transferred hundreds of files both ways without any issues, my guess is it's the length of your cable that's causing issues. You don't need much of a pc to run it, I would see if you can find an old  pc somewhere that has a 9 pin serial port on it and a shorter cable...or like you said, just use the USB port!

As for all the extra code you're getting in your posts, like has already been said, contact your reseller first, however if you still need help I'd be happy to take a look at your post if you want. 

Keep plugging away at it, you'll get there!

 

 

[CNC_Newbie]

On 2/26/2021 at 2:14 PM, jjones61 said:

As for all the extra code you're getting in your posts, like has already been said, contact your reseller first, however if you still need help I'd be happy to take a look at your post if you want. 

Thank you. I will reach out when I am ready. Thanks for offering to help me. I learn so much each day. I wish it was all day everyday Mastercam stuff, but it isnt. Mastercam time only comes at night when I am trying to figure out everything VIA the MC 2020 HLE software. In the daytime I am fighting to install un mapped fixtures, and input correct offsets (10-15 per part) to make these hand coded parts cut parts. Its horrific to say the least! I know a these issues we are having are based on programming. I also know we have 3D models for everything we are cutting.  This is the reason I need to learn this stuff quickly. I am tired of struggling with what we are doing. 

The fellow that is doing the programs now has to spend hours Modding the Posts.  Here is an example.  He has a model and selects a edge to cut, so he draws a line in the center od the edge, then used curves for a 5 axis 3D tool path, then  he selects the line/chain he drew, then he repeats that process making a seperate toolpath for each section of the part he wants to cut, this means a HUGE list of tool paths and lines he as to draw to create the tool paths. insead of using the surfaces or edges of the model as the selection for the tool path. In the end, he will have 18-20 seperate tool paths and hen he posts it, between each toolpath the post has generated a reset or an Unwind that has to be removed in the post editor so the tool wol stay in the cut.

 

I know there are so many ways to do any one thing in Mastercam. If in fact the Programmer has to create new lines vs using the actual models edges of the model and creating new lines via some sort of offset to center the new line vs being an outside edge.  What we do is basically cut parts out of a molded plastic sheet that has been formed in 3D. We place the formed parts onto a vacuum fixture and cut it out.   Let's say the part thickness is 1/4" and the model shows this 1'4 thickness as an edge of a part, if you select that edge as a face, the toolpath created will cut around the outside edges of the part, but if you draw a line down the center of that 1/4 thick part, you can select just that line and the tool fill cut down the center of the edge via single cut.

I am still trying to figure out the basics. I will have to say that (IMO) Mastercam isn't very intuitive.  I think you should be able to select a face, an edge, or a line of a model. Tell it to cut here in the center or inside or outside, then select if you want to make the cut horizontal or vertical (using the tip or the side of the endmill). I think you should have loop selection where I can hover an edge on a model and if that edge creates a loop it should highlight and I should be able to select it. Once selected, it should ask me how do I want to cut the first feature, then as the features change, like from a straight line to a radius it should as how I wand the tool to follow. I have used several 3D modeling software packages, 99% were for drawing, and I was able to fumble along and discover how to do different things quite easily. Mastercam is a different animal all together. I will learn this stuff and when I do I plan to make lots of video tutorials helping folks like me who struggle to understand the basics. IE, how to make a selection of a 3D model, how generate a toolpath based on a selection, how to define actual cutter orientation to the part. Lastly how to select multiple edges or surfaces at once and define the control of the tool as described,

I know Mastercam can do everything, its trying to figure it out in an clear and easily understood way.  I was really hoping that I could find someone on KCMO that would be willing to tutor me, but this isn't going to happen, LOL   Long winded ramble.... Over!