Pallet Pool People

[Tim Johnson]

We are looking at the idea of pallet pools either with a Tsugami 11 pallet HSM, an Enshu horizontal JE60s,Je80s with a pallet pool, or adding a pallet pool to our existing Enshu Je60s for running our 5-10 piece production parts.

The info I'm looking for is what accessories we need to make this investment a success, problems you had when you started your pallet pools, How many people it takes to run one, and suggestions in general. I'm trying to shorten my learning curve. We are definitely getting one, we just don't know which one yet.

 

Thanks in advance

[Charlie Pierson]

Tim,

We have 5 Tsugami MA3s & two FMA3s.

 

My first suggestion is to have 'Custom Macro B' enabled in the Fanuc control.

 

'Tool Breakage Detection' will also be a plus especially w/ 'Tool Life Management' , 'Pallet to Program Checking', and 'Auto Pallet Recovery' if you plan to run "lights out".

 

Custom Macro B makes programming multiple stations of the same part much easier as well as being able to use only 1 subprogram to machine all the holes in one face by parameterizing (sp?) all the arguments in the 'G81 etc. type canned cycles.

I also use Custom Macro B to have the control figure where part Zero winds up when I rotate the pallet.

 

w/ the Tsugamis it only takes 1 person to handle the whole shooting match.

 

I strongly suggest that you purchase a Master Taper Bar for recalibration of the machine home positions. (if you need to have 2 holes in line w/ each other on opposite sides of the part, you will need to do the 1st hole ,index the tombstone 180 degrees, drive the X axis to position the 2nd hole.) It is much easier to do when you know for sure that the center of the pallet rotation is dead nuts on the center line of the spindle.

I can go on & on.

If you need any more suggestions or help, drop me a line (email)

cp

[Tim Johnson]

Charlie,

We were quoted fully loaded with macro B and 400 programs,(Im a BIG sub and macro guy ) 300/400? offsets with tool/life, the pallets are spose to have cards for the programs and the tool detection was shown as standard. I also use X,Z rotation techniques.

Where would I get a master taper bar and would this fit on the pallets themselves? Most of my parts will be on a clustertower. We're currently having our rep check to make sure that the Chick towers will fit. I prefer Kurt but we're limited to 175? lbs per pallet on the Tsugami.

Also, does the controller have a seperate memory for each program? My horizontal programs average 40-60 subs but each sub may be using the same program number but have different processes on each program file.

[Charlie Pierson]

The Master Taper Bar fits in the spindle.

available from Command Tooling Systems.

BT40 example# B4W4-0004

 

The bar length (along w/ a jo-block and 1" dia plug) is used to calibrate cline of "B" axis to gauge line of spindle ( which should be 19.7500" on MA3 and FMA3)

The bar diameter ( w/ jo-block ) is used to calibrate "Y" axis.

The bar dia is also used to calibrate X axis to cline of Z (X-7.1250 on FMA3) by attaching indicator to pallet plate , driving X axis to G90G54X-7.125(FMA3 w/ G54 wokshift X zeroed), setting indicator on high point of bar dia, indexing pallet 180 degrees and re-indicating.

The indicator should read the same in both instances.

All adjustments mede by parameter #1850

 

We use a digital height gage and 40 taper block to measure our tool lengths. (micrometers for diameters). The same Master Bar calibrates the the height gage / block setup.

 

We have had nothing but good luck w/ Chick

The Chick Multilock you need would probably be the (SYSTEM 5) 5ML1030-41 for a 4 sided tstone

 

**************************

does the controller have a seperate memory for each program?

**************************

 

not understanding the question ??

 

I try to limit my part programs to 1 main program (always ending in zero) and subs ???1-9

 

each seperate sub is usually based upon wether or not a different face of the part is being presented to the spindle. Different sections of the sub are for different tools and accessed by a variable. i.e.

 

O5550(MAIN)

|

|

N10( drill in spindle )

G65P5551L?____I1

|

|

N20( mill in spindle)

g65p5551l?______I2

|

|

etc

 

O5551

IF [#4 EQ 1.] GOTO 110

IF [#4 EQ 2.] GOTO 120

N110( TOP HOLES )

|

|

|

IF [#4 EQ 1.] GOTO 198

N120( FACE MILL + PROFILE)

|

|

|

N198(CLEAR)

M99

 

half day today , gone @ 11:AM EST

 

[email protected]

[Tim Johnson]

My toolpath subprograms are named sequentially as each tool is called. The first tool in each program file will run programs 4011 through 4013 (depending on the situation). The second tool run prograns 4021 through 4023 ... Every program file has the same program numbers. I can't (yet) setup two programs at one time without the subs running on top of each other if all the "active" programs are in one memory area let alone eleven. I'm hoping all the programs are stripped from active memory and then the next program file were loaded in on each pallet change.

 

What extra accessories would you recommend for a starter?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Hey Tim,

 

Pallet Pools are the best thing since sliced bread. There are people that just don;t like the idea of a machine running with the lights in the building off and nobody but the mice there, I'm not one of them though. This is the ONLY way to remain competitive in this day and age.

 

Mandatory stuff,

Tool Breakage Detection and Tool Length Measurement

Custom MACRO B

Dataserver

 

On my Mori here'd how it works...

 

New Pallet goes in the machine. Program Memory (except for O8000 through O9999) gets dumped. A Master program gets uploaded (O7777) and in it are two subs. One is a pallet Offset Program O1(Pallet Number), Ex... O108 for Pallet #8, then the other is the Part Program SUb Call. So it would look like this...

 

O7777

M98 P108

M98 P1234

M30

 

Now the sub call for us is a little different because the amount of work we have on a pallet cannot fit in machine memory, so we have Dataservers. The O1234 is just another dummy program that calls the programs in the Dataserver. Ex..

 

O1234( 12345678-1 SUB CALL)

 

N1

G0G91G30Z0

G30X0Y0

G90G28B0.

G0G54.1P1 (MAKES EXTENDED OFFSET ACTIVE)

M198 PXXXX (CALLS PROG XXXX FROM DATASERVER)

M1

 

N2

G0G91G30Z0

G30X0Y0

G90G28B0.

G0G54.1P2 (MAKES EXTENDED OFFSET ACTIVE)

M198 PXXXX (CALLS PROG XXXX FROM DATASERVER)

M1

.

.

.

.

M99

 

You get the picture...

 

Anything esle you'd like to know? I've got a dialed in post for this type of setup. I'll give it away for free. Just contact me with with your resller's info so I can kick them a copy as well.

[Tim Johnson]

Hi James,

 

Sorry about responding so late. I'm at home on vacation now and with the Christmas stuff going on ... The mandatory stuff you mentioned was all on the proposal but the dataserver and the tool length measurement for the Tsugami so I'll have to make sure the dataserver is included also. I haven't seen the Enshu proposal. Both machines use the Fanuc 18 control. We're looking into getting a tool presetter so we can get the tool lengths/Dia offline but I think I like the tool length measurement better so I'll bring it up when I get back to work. What quantities does your pallet pool run? Are there any accessories off the machine that your operators use that we might need? I appreciate the offer for the post. I'll send you my reseller's info next month.

[robk]

Under mandatory stuff you should also add a part probe system. Couldn't live with out one now.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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We're looking into getting a tool presetter so we can get the tool lengths/Dia offline but I think I like the tool length measurement better so I'll bring it up when I get back to work.

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Automatic Tool Length Measurement and Tool Breakage detection (with TBD being MANDATORY are really essential. When we got one of our cells (Mori Seiki SH-8000 2 Machine 24 pallet System) it only has TBD which sucks. We bought an offline presetter which makes it a TON better than not having one. Before we got it, we had to get into the machine to measure tools.

 

quote:

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What quantities does your pallet pool run?

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Varies from month to month. Usually about 700 parts total give r take. It was up signifigantly higher than that before US Air decided to go bankrupt.

 

quote:

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Are there any accessories off the machine that your operators use that we might need?

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If you don't get a chip conveyor, you're insane! Seriously though, you NEED one fo those.

[Tim Johnson]

We'll have the probe and chip conveyor. My biggest concern is support for setting up our lot sizes (5 to 10). We'll always be setting up something (tooling/fixturing) If this works out like we hope production control will be cutting wo's for 3/4 weeks usage (it's at 6 and 12 weeks now) making our quantities lower still. My immediate thoughts are setting up a common tooling base for the first 20 to 30 tools and keeping less common tooling on a rack/cart and setting up uncommom tools individually for each job. For each program I'm thinking of using macro to create a link from the program's tool numbers and the tooling pot where the less common/uncommon tools would start from in each main program. Then I think I might be better off just putting all tooling in for each job and yank them out each time when we're done and rename each starting pot as tool 1. It's the same with the fixtures, do I get extra pallets and store common fixturing setups (very expensive) or let the operators resetup the fixtures on every work order? I'm sure there are a lot of "little" things we will need to help support this pallet pool, just don't know what they are yet. The only time I've seen this done with small quantities is at the Mazak complex in Kentucky but we're not ready for that kind of automation.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

We have common tools between the two machines, except we only have 1 6" Face Mill but the other machine's pocket is empty for that tool. They are tooled identical, same LOC, OAL, etc... so we can go between machines if we need to. Usually -1's (or odds) run in Machine #1 and -2's (or evens) run in Machine #2 except when we run both -#'s on one pallet which we do for 2 parts now. If your parts are small, I'd go with a Kurt Cluster Tower Vise setup. These things are the shizzle, Parlec also make a nice one too. Though Parlec has had xxxx poor delivery the last couple of things I've ordered from them so... I;d go with the Kurt honestly.

 

quote:

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...One or two pallets with muliti locks, 2-4 with standardized tombstones. Fixure plates were then made up to ball lock quickly onto tombstone. dedicated fixture for every part. 1-2 pallets with standardized fixturing for centrally mounted parts, ie. the whole part sits in the middle of the pallet and work is performed on all sides...

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Could not have said it better myself!

 

Oh, get at least 120 Tool Magazine if possible and build yourself a library. I have 240 spots, but only about 59 Tools I think right now.

 

HTH

[Tim Johnson]

Thanks guys,

quote:

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One or two pallets with muliti locks, 2-4 with standardized tombstones. Fixure plates were then made up to ball lock quickly onto tombstone. dedicated fixture for every part. 1-2 pallets with standardized fixturing for centrally mounted parts, ie. the whole part sits in the middle of the pallet and work is performed on all sides.

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Sounds like our shop just a higher percentage of clustertowers.