Matsura VX1000

[ToolMan184]

I just learned that these machines are now assembled in Taiwan.    Even the big dogs are looking for cheap labor.

[Sticky]

Along with the VX1500, Hplus400 and Hplus500 (new model). They are built by Quaser.

[Newbeeee™]

To be fair, Matsuura (I believe) are working real close with Quaser and it's also their spindle and s/w front end installed in the machines.

I can sort of see the reasons for them doing this for verticals as there's a glut of manufacturers out there, but Matsuura have always been one of the very top Hori companies for 7/24 production. 

And I can't see why they have gone this way with the Horis, except cost?

[Guest]

I just learned that these machines are now assembled in Taiwan.    Even the big dogs are looking for cheap labor.

Don't knock ALL Taiwan machines. Some deserve the vote of but not all. I was in a Taiwanese MTB factory two weeks ago and there wasn't much discernible difference between that factory and some big dog factories in Japan I've been to.

[Guest]

And I can't see why they have gone this way with the Horis, except cost?

perhaps they needed more capacity to build for an expanding 5-Axis market amid a declining Horizontal market. We've got a LOT of customers that just skipped the HMC all together and went straight from VMC's to 5-Axis.

 

[Sticky]

Well one thing is for sure, up here in Canada the Quaser built Matsuura's are NOT more affordable than their Japanese machines. I was told that Matsuura plans to continue building their Hplus300,405 and 630 in Japan.

[Guest]

Well one thing is for sure, up here in Canada the Quaser built Matsuura's are NOT more affordable than their Japanese machines. I was told that Matsuura plans to continue building their Hplus300,405 and 630 in Japan.

 

There's a VX1000 that is roughly 3km from my house. They cut molds on it and could not be happier with the price/performance.

 

When was the last time you priced out a V.Plus?

 

I was under the same impression as you; H.Plus machines would be built in Japan. Of course with some exceptions, country of origin is becoming less and less relevant.

[MIL-TFP-41]

I heard rumors that either the Hplus400 or the Hplus500 was Korean built, not Taiwan. I personally doubt that to be true...but would be interesting if it was.

[Guest]

I heard rumors that either the Hplus400 or the Hplus500 was Korean built, not Taiwan. I personally doubt that to be true...but would be interesting if it was.

H.Plus is NOT Korean built. Probably a Mori shill spreading that.

[Sticky]

There's a VX1000 that is roughly 3km from my house. They cut molds on it and could not be happier with the price/performance.

 

When was the last time you priced out a V.Plus?

 

I was under the same impression as you; H.Plus machines would be built in Japan. Of course with some exceptions, country of origin is becoming less and less relevant.

 

I don't think I've ever had the Vplus100 quoted, we don't really do vertical work here. I did have a VX1500 quoted when they first came out, all I remember it was somewhere in the "LOL" price range.

 

I did just have a loaded Hplus500 quoted, it's more or less the same price as a Hplus630. I don't understand why they would price the 500 that high, might as well just buy the 630. We might be going with Makino this time around anyways, we'll see.

 

I heard rumors that either the Hplus400 or the Hplus500 was Korean built, not Taiwan. I personally doubt that to be true...but would be interesting if it was.

 

They are made in Taiwan by Quaser. Quasers HX404 is the same basic machine as the Hplus400, they've added their spindle, control interface and probably some other things.

 

[Guest]

I don't think I've ever had the Vplus100 quoted, we don't really do vertical work here. I did have a VX1500 quoted when they first came out, all I remember it was somewhere in the "LOL" price range.

Well, the V.Plus is even more than the VX. Why would you talk $#!+ on a machine that you 1) never intend to even consider purchasing, 2) never intend on looking at what you get for your money, and 3) a machine you know nothing about?

 

I did just have a loaded Hplus500 quoted, it's more or less the same price as a Hplus630.

It's either more, less, or the same. Which is it?

 

I don't understand why they would price the 500 that high, might as well just buy the 630.

Unless the person doing the buying looks that the work going into the machine and figures out the 500 is a better fit. It's not always better to get the bigger machine. If you're doing small parts you often have to put longer reach tools in the machine, maing the process not as efficient as it could be.

 

 

...they've added their spindle, control interface and probably some other things.

Otherwise known as the heart and soul of the machine. Look. I get you're hurt that a well known Japanese builder has gone (in your eyes) the cut-rate route. You yourself are complaining about the cost of a machine, yet when a builder tries to do something that (in my eyes) goes towards making Japanese engineering a little more affordable you criticize it. :headscratch:

 

JM2CFWIW YMMV

[Sticky]

I'm not talking sh1t. My post wasn't so much about the verticals as it was the horizontals.

 

The hplus500 was 20k less then the equally equipped hplus630, they are vastly different machines. It's a no brainer that the 630 is the better value.

 

You think I'm hurt that a Japanese builder is having their machines made in Taiwan? Lolcatz, where do you get this sh1t from?

 

I'm not complaining about the costs of the machines in the way you say I do. I am criticizing a builder for getting machines made in a cheaper country, without lowering the price ('MURRICAN style), there is a difference. And no, lowering the price by the cost of TSC and coolant cooler doesn't count.

[MIL-TFP-41]

The hplus500 was 20k less then the equally equipped hplus630, they are vastly different machines. It's a no brainer that the 630 is the better value.

 

 

Wow...I would of expected a bigger difference than that. The 630 is a heavy beast...wonder what the machine weight comparison is between the 2.

[Sticky]

I expected the same. I don't have full manuals for the 500 yet, so I can't comment on weight. There is a shop somewhat locally that has two of the new 500's in an fms, but Matsuura has been pretty tight lipped about the machines. I expect we will learn more after they are first shown this fall. They were supposed to make it to imts last year, but it didn't happen.

[betts]

 

 

We've got a LOT of customers that just skipped the HMC all together and went straight from VMC's to 5-Axis.

 

I have been thinking the same thing, for many reasons.  Before I run this up the ladder to my boss, what are the top 3 or 4 reasons your customer give for going to the 5-axis and skipping the HMC?

[Newbeeee™]

So I'm wondering too...

If the part is 6 face prismatic, I'm assuming a hori will generally out perform a 5axis. Two ops and the part is done???

I'm thinking purely from the twin pallet (or more) multi load, unless you bolt a cube to a 5 axis machine to multi load (okay I guess for small work, or you'd need a large 5 ax?) but a 5axis part is still 2 ops (either a pre-op or a finish op)?

If you have a stacker like the Mams have, then obviously yes you can multi load once tooled. But generally is it fair to say that most people do one part at a time on a 5ax?

Also there's the additional cost of post, verification, huge? learning curve (compared to a hori)?

[Guest]

I have been thinking the same thing, for many reasons.  Before I run this up the ladder to my boss, what are the top 3 or 4 reasons your customer give for going to the 5-axis and skipping the HMC?

One way a 5-Axis kicks the crap out of a Horizontal is tooling cost. If you have low volume, high mix, that gets REALLY expensive. Now, to be fair, high volume prismatic work that can be done in 2 ops, the HMC reigns supreme, hands down. I can tool up a 32 Pallet MAM72-35V for around with Raptors for around $25k, or for an additional $20k, go full blown Lang. How many pallets you going to properly tool with off the shelf toolingfor $42k? 3? 4? AND, how much unattended tiem will I get compared on those 4 pallets vs. the 32 on the 5-Axis? If I have some smaller high volume parts, I can always add a 4 sided chick tombstone and get a few parts on the same pallet. So the first qustion you have to ask is are you a high volume shop or are you a low volume shop?

 

So I'm wondering too...

If the part is 6 face prismatic, I'm assuming a hori will generally out perform a 5axis. Two ops and the part is done???

I'm thinking purely from the twin pallet (or more) multi load, unless you bolt a cube to a 5 axis machine to multi load (okay I guess for small work, or you'd need a large 5 ax?) but a 5axis part is still 2 ops (either a pre-op or a finish op)?

If you have a stacker like the Mams have, then obviously yes you can multi load once tooled. But generally is it fair to say that most people do one part at a time on a 5ax?

Also there's the additional cost of post, verification, huge? learning curve (compared to a hori)?

Generally yes one at a time but not always. On the bigger MAMsyou can get standard tombstones on them and go that route and you ARENOT doing that on an HMC. The 5-Axis is so much more flexible. It's all in how creative you are.

 

Tool Pots are tool pots so that's a wash.

 

Post... If you buys a Matsuura you get a post, collision detection and part simulation and you don;t have to change your CAM system to get that.

 

 

[civiceg]

 

 

Post... If you buys a Matsuura you get a post, collision detection and part simulation and you don;t have to change your CAM system to get that. 

 

 

I have only heard that bundled in for 5 axis. True 4th whole lot of nope.

[Sticky]

Aside from parts that truly justify 5 axis (more then 2 ops on an hmc or complex contouring work) 5 axis really shines in the tooling costs, as James pointed out. It is going to be really hard to set up 4 "flexible" hmc tombstones for $45k. But 45K will load up a small 5 axis cell with Lang/5th axis vises, chucks plates etc.

 

We do prototyping and short run high mix work on our fms, the type of work we do does not warrant a 5 axis machine, but we've already spent lots of money on making flexible tombstones, and they cost us dearly.

[Guest]

I have only heard that bundled in for 5 axis. True 4th whole lot of nope.

HMC posts are not anywhere near as complicated as a 5-Axis posts. Matter of fact, In-House gives away MPMaster. Doesn;t take much to tune that bad bad boy up for a Matsuura. :

 

Buy a 5-Axis, get CAMplete and the Machine for the HMC isn't much to add to it.

[civiceg]

No issues using MPMaster here. However, pre X9 machine sim with no multi axis link was a joke for 3+1. CAMplete would have been nice, still would be.

[Guest]

No issues using MPMaster here. However, pre X9 machine sim with no multi axis link was a joke for 3+1. CAMplete would have been nice, still would be.

Yeah... I REALLY like it. The WYSIWYG post just kicks @$$.

[betts]

 

 

One way a 5-Axis kicks the crap out of a Horizontal is tooling cost. If you have low volume, high mix, that gets REALLY expensive. Now, to be fair, high volume prismatic work that can be done in 2 ops, the HMC reigns supreme, hands down. I can tool up a 32 Pallet MAM72-35V for around with Raptors for around $25k, or for an additional $20k, go full blown Lang. How many pallets you going to properly tool with off the shelf toolingfor $42k? 3? 4? AND, how much unattended tiem will I get compared on those 4 pallets vs. the 32 on the 5-Axis? If I have some smaller high volume parts, I can always add a 4 sided chick tombstone and get a few parts on the same pallet. So the first qustion you have to ask is are you a high volume shop or are you a low volume shop?

 

Well we don't have any volume to speak of in the big picture machining world.  Our 4-axis a61's in pallet systems have cost a fortune in tooling.  We try to grab a 5-axis part in a Lang or 5th Axis vise with no prep, but sometimes we use a Techni-Grip.  Either way if we can oversize the material and tab it out in one op you can't beat it IMNSHO.  I really think it might be easier to train a programmer on 5-axis with today's software.  Giving a guy a "5-axis" part and telling him to build it on a 4-axis (which we did for a long time) is tough training.  Currently we are all rotary/rotary but we may mix that up down the road.

[Guest]

I think programming for 5-Axis is easier than for an HMC. Fewer restrictions.

 

Simultaneous 5 is a little different, but generally speaking the vast majority of the work being done on 5-Axis machines is 3+2 work.

[elkranch13851]

First post here, but have been lurking for many years.

I have a VX1000 that I bought new earlier this year.  Although not a "true" Matsuura, it's been a solid machine for us.  Good speed and accuracy, the control is a 31i Fanuc but has a weird button layout as compared to every other 31i in our shop.  I also have a Mori Duravertical and the VX performs every bit as good, and has a 60 tool magazine which is awesome.