5-axis post

[cadcam]

James I think that the last thing Ron is stating is that when we sell a seat that when it comes to 5-axis that we should state it up front an added cost. Is what I am agreeing with and that maybe we should put a cost package together that may contain at least one 5-axis post for there pacific machine along with the update solid verify.

Have it be a level 3 add on for 5axis.

This makes good sense. Like you are saying that almost all other software’s add an extra cost for their 5-axis post or an added cost for being able to do 5-axes at all.

Hope i am makeing sense.

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jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

cnc programming &

Predator reseller

email: [email protected]

web: www.ppcadcam.com

[Kenneth Potter]

Hey !! James i think cadcam is right about about what Ronenginner is trying to point out. State it up front about the added extra features & cost.It is very frustrating to find out these extra factors 100 miles down the road (shocked) ,Then you will feel like you were ambushed.

Now dont get me wrong, I dont mind spending the Bucks.(MONEY I GOT !!!)I would have payed for those extras during my original purchace of Mastercam,if i had known all the DETAILS up front. I simply pass the extra cost along to the customer.

 

Love this forum !

Kenneth Potter

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

In our company, we always tell customers 5 Axis posts are extra. The actual price varies depending on several factors.

I can't relate to dealers not being up front about that added cost.

I'm certainly in agreement with you guys saying that dealers/resellers need to be completely upfront about what is part of the software ME, M1, M3, M3, LE, L1, W1, etc..... and what is NOT. (ex Posts, solids, add-on translators, etc...). I have always included 3 axis posts and 2 axis lathe posts for free when a customer/potential customer buys from me, but there is always a charge for 5 Axis and sometimes a charge for 4 Axis (if the required output is nowhere near what MPFAN puts out.)

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James Meyette

[This message has been edited by James Meyette (edited 05-14-2001).]

[johnl]

Hi Gang,

It seems this string is turning into a real firestorm! I am also a 5 axis user and Im also a future software developer. To all the users out there the folks at M/C are not and could not be in the business to give away technology. M/C has to continually generate revenue by developing and supporting their software. The amount of labor involved with the 5 axis stuff is very demanding. So demanding other things would suffer(other customers).

I know when we bought our version of M/C the salesman left here really beat up! I dont think he had ever gone through such a rigorus question and answer session than he did with us. We knew exactly what we were getting with our version of M/C. We had no surprises.

I can symathize with all the 5 axis users out there cause its been a very difficult journey. All I can ask the other users out there is did you ask all the right questions and if you did why did you not demand a 5 axis post with your package!

[Sanjay]

Gstephens,

I would like to get a copy of this powerpoint presentation showing the calculations for the 5-axis tool paths.

I cant seem to email you directly.

sanjay.

 

[Simtech]

Hi guys,

Being a fairly new Mastercam reseller (2 yrs) I always quote the basic package price involved like a Mill Level 3 and all the add-on features separately.

Options:

5 axis post for such and such control:

5 axis toolpath verification:

MoldPlus including SolidSep:

AutoCAD DWG Converter:

Mastercam Solids:

Training:

Tutorials:

All these items are very easily explained to the customer and the customer has the final decision on what he does or does not want. It is there decision to be made.

But if after explaining the different options available (and there are a lot of C-Hooks out there) the customer decide to wait for the 5 axis post or the Solids package, well thats there decision. But they have the facts (and the prices) up front and on the table.

Thats my opinion ... BTW, I love this forum too!

 

[Kenneth Potter]

Johnl

Ask the right questions is a point well taken. But Knowing what questions to ask in the beginning,Especially advanced issues such as 5axis-& post, And any aftermarket items can added to the sells brochures for later review,

A full detailed list of itemized options really would really help.

 

Quote from johnl

__________________________________________

I know when we bought our version of M/C the salesman left here really beat up!

__________________________________________

Email me his address so i can send him a get well card ! he he

Kenneth Potter

 

[johnl]

Ken,

I can see your point about asking the right questions escpecially if you don't know what your future demands will be. This is only my opinion but folks going into the 5 axis realm are not making these decisions at the spur of the moment. We purchased M/C with the intentions of using up to the 5th axis.

It was the multi axis capabilities that sold us on M/C. We had every manufacturer in here to demonstrate their product. We tried to come up with every possible hurdle before our purchase and it worked out in our favor.

Remember that old saying "Buyer Beware"

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I know I've been beat up pretty good before on demos but I almost always get the order because I go so far past my competition in demo's that they aren't even in the same league. I always ask for a customer print/part to show the functionality of the software because I don't have a canned demo. I go prepared to show from 2 axis lathe to 5 Axis Cylinder head porting. Granted, I'm not a 5 axis expert but I am fairly competent(sp?). As I'm showing the features, I explain what is part of the Base (If you can call Mill Level 3 base) Software package and what is not.

Many times when I go out to do a 5 Axis Demo, it is to people that are just exploring the possibilities. They don't know what questions to ask, they don't know what to look for in a machine, they don't know how to chhose the machine style for the type of work they do/want to do, so I spent a lot of time explaining the process, the differences in machines/controls, etc... AND they want to know if the software will grow with them.

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James Meyette

[johnl]

Hey Ken,

Sounds like James needs a get well card or two!

[cadcam]

Now Now john lets be nice.

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jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

cnc programming &

Predator reseller

email: [email protected]

web: www.ppcadcam.com

[Kenneth Potter]

James

You have just made my point .They "we" dont know all the questions to ask & are exploring the possibilites. Im willing to bet that many Mastercam level 3 Customers walked away thinking that they had Purchace everything INCLUDING full 5 AXIS when in fact they had not a freakin clue that 5 axis Post & 5 and C axis solid verify are left out! Then down the road after getting knee deep learning the software inside & out, advancing into the 5 axis realm " exploring the possibilitys" thinking you have everything in the software to start with & What__ The |!@$#%#$% is this contact your local Mastercam dealer for pricing !!!!

 

Like i said earlier, I would & payed have for those extras during my original purchace of Mastercam,if i had known all the DETAILS up front.Cause i wanted it all over & done with. Now my original Mastercam saleman quit for a better job & his replacment is MC newbie User himself.Sooooo i had to go around his back to someone else & use this forum for REAL detailed information. (Frustration & Wasted Time )So what that i have to dig in my pockets a little deeper for the 5 axis goodies , I going to make money anyway , Just be up front during the sale.

 

My humble Opinon JAMES

 

Kenneth Potter

[This message has been edited by Kenneth Potter (edited 05-18-2001).]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Ken,

Unfortunately, many CAD/CAM Dealers (in the industry as a whole - not just isolating MC Dealers) are ill equipped even answer simple 5 axis questions because of many factors so they themselves don't know much of anything. This perpatuates and exacerbates(sp?) the problem(s).

We (The reseller I work for) have 5 or 6 people well versed in 5 axis CUTTING and two people well versed in 5 Axis Posts. On of 5 Axis Post guys has even helped out other dealers on occasion. Perhaps the dealers that are not equipped to handle shoud call on others more often. I think there would be more satisfied customers that way.

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James Meyette

[Kenneth Potter]

Question ?

How hard is it to create A document??? A Mastercam software add ons options "EXTRAS" document. Making it clear about what you get & what you Dont get! What extras you have to pay for ?? Itemize that list in a clear fashion.

I see Lots of Request for 5 axis post in this forum And i,m willing to bet that these poor folks are clueless to the fact getting a 5 axis post is whole new ball game!

 

Kenneth Potter

 

Oh yea !

I belive in an eariler posttread some one said that dailed custom made 5 axis post are tied " locked" to the hasp ID . IS that true ?

Kenneth Potter

 

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Kenneth,

Sometimes posts are coded to run on certain HASPS.

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James Meyette

[Michael Reynolds]

I've been following this for a while, and it seems to me that some of you want way MORE than you paid for. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but, as a cadcam user for about 5 years, I have seen, demo'd, checked pricing, and used other cadcam systems. I currently use both Mcam and UNIGRAPHICS and I can tell you that the service I get from mastercam (which is significantly less expensive than UG) is far better. I mean FAR better. UG's service and support SUCKS. On the other hand, any time I need help with ANYTHING, all I have to do is call my buddies in GIG harbor, Union (NJ), or Tolland, and I've got my answer. I call the people at UG, and they want some payment for any help at all (They also usually advise what I thought in the first place, anyway).

Here's the thing. We, as a College, pay 3 to 4 times more for UG than we do for Mcam, and, on the cam side, Mcam is much more powerful, and easier to use.

Here's my main question to all my friends that are questioning mcam - what other cadcam system gives you 5 axis posts for free???.....

again, I say all this in the most respectful manner...

Thanks for listening!

Mike R.

 

[yenkls]

Well, I have also been following this thread for some time. I'm a novice in this forum, so adding few ideas may advance me towards becoming a "member".

I know that most of Mcam competitors do not give away ANY post. They charge for each and every post the customer needs, whether it is two axis, or seven;-)

The attitude of some of you guys, remind me of those software users that ask to get extra licenses for free, since "you have already wrote the software, so why charge for more copies? You are only copying disks..."

And a bit economy. prices are determined according to offer and demand. It has nothing to do with development costs.

 

[ronengineer]

Michael Reynolds and Yenkls

This has been a very long running thread and you miss the point by thinking that we want something for nothing.

In the UK the cost of one Mcam PP and 1 catia translator (we need both) is nearly 40% of the cost of a more expensive competitors (and on paper better 5 axis system D***** but if anyone knows better let us know) system which includes 5 axis post and translator. It is about value for money and a post at $6000 and translator at $3000 sucks. We are new to 5 axis machining (we don't even start till june!) and so having thought we had the basis for the programming we were shocked at the additional cost necessary to process the toolpath info. that was already there included. We never did object to paying but we wish we had known more up front about what the additional costs could be.

But it is not just about money, it is also about risk. Just how much Mcam info can you get to read about for 5 axis?, How much help info is there?, We haven't seen anything so we do not even know what we are buying into and what guarantees are involved. We have seen no more than the demo's that are included in the v8.1.

Up until now Mcam has been a really useful system, it has been practical and value for money. For us to use it in the next stage of our companies progression serious doubts have occurred. And no one has really addressed these, and I think only Mcam can.

1) We want infomation. Good detailed technical infomation about 5 axis. You dealers say that it is a seperate commodity so create a technical document to sell it's merits against your competitors.

2) It has become apparent that if we worked in the good ol Americas then we would pay about 40% less for our product. Unreal. Is it no wonder that it seems bad value for money.

Now answer me this (anyone). For an expanding company what is the best value:

$9000 in extras for an existing seat. Which you do not really know what it can do in 5 axis (although is proven in 4 axis) or

$24000 for a whole extra (better?) system set up for 5 axis machining.

This is an excellent forum and thanks to all contributors.

[Kenneth Potter]

Michael Reynolds and Yenkls

 

As ronengineer said , YOU miss the point.

thinking that we want somthing for nothing, Wrong! The bottom line is many Mastercam Lev 3 customers walked away after buying the sofware ARE simply under the impreesion that they have everthing they need including five axis post & verify When in fact you dont. My email box is jammed from other mastercam owners screaming about 5 axis stuff & not being told up front before there purchace.& how there running around wasting time looking for post to get started & then down the road are shocked That these features are and added option thats going to cost more money.

The cnc arena is expencive, we all know that. Not much in this area is free.

Being told up front(day one) what to expect in a detailed fashion (document) about about 5 axis post & verify issues should be free.

jmho

 

Kenneth Potter

 

[This message has been edited by Kenneth Potter (edited 05-21-2001).]

[cadcam]

so ken you are ending your statment saying that the post & varify should be free?

please tell me this is not the statment.

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jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

cnc programming &

Predator reseller

email: [email protected]

web: www.ppcadcam.com

[This message has been edited by cadcam (edited 05-21-2001).]

[yenkls]

Hi all,

I didn't mean to offend. I didn't mean anybody specific, it is only the feeling I got when reading this very long thread, that few of you are expecting to get thing for

free.

Ronengineer,

regarding pricing, please see my economy note. I noticed that many products are being sold for different prices in different countries. I don't know all the reasons (import taxes, local sales taxes, currency exchange rates, competition etc...) but free economy is also in the game. I believe, England, in software, may be like 30% higher than the US. Also sometimes, some of the costs, are negotiable.

My personal opinion regarding your dilemma is to stay with Mastercam, and I'm going to count only few of the benefits. One is that you know it well, two, no doubt it is well known software, three I'm not sure about the extra expenses you might have with the other system, four, you are generaly satisfied with Mcam, who knows how satisfied you are going to be with the other one. And most of all, here you have this beautiful forum and it is free of charge even in England;-)

Ken,

I think no one is stating in the product brochure, what is not included. Anyhow, we have been told very clear, before urchasing, that the price includes 123, and it does not include 456. We new that later we may have to pay for each post, for each extra training and we new roughly a price frame and the hourly rate.

I think this thread is becoming too long.

And I agree that this forum is great.

Have a nice Monday

[This message has been edited by yenkls (edited 05-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by yenkls (edited 05-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by yenkls (edited 05-21-2001).]

[Michael Reynolds]

Me too... I also didn't mean to offend anyone, just puting in my 2 cents...

Mike R>

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Jay,

I think Ken's point(Ken please correct me if I'm wrong) was that the documentation that points out what costs what and what is required to do this or that should be free.

Ron,

You are never under any obligation to purchase your 5 Axis Post from your Mastercam Reseller. You are free to search the universe for a better deal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to encourage it, just to inform you of your options as your reseller probably has. Be warned that if you were to purchase a post from somewhere else, i.e. another Mastercam Dealer/Third Party Post Developer Solution they would be responsible for ANY support related issues and with 5 axis there are many things driven by the post.

I've enjoyed this discussion, it's been enlightening to see how this issue is delat with in other parts of the world.

Now, here's my $.02 There is free post processor documentation that comes with Mastercam. Access your C-Hooks, then bring up Posthelp.dll - this will get you started with the most up to date Post Processor Info. I'm not sure how in-depth it goes into 5 Axis Posts because that is not my realm, but you are free to parouse this at your leasure.

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James Meyette

[cadcam]

Thanks james i probly read it wrong.

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jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

cnc programming &

Predator reseller

email: [email protected]

web: www.ppcadcam.com

[This message has been edited by cadcam (edited 05-21-2001).]

[ERIC14779]

I also am new to 5-axis (March 2001) and I knew that a post for our machine would cost around $3000.00 I required my machinery builder to provide me with a mastercam post. After all you are not going to hand program a 5 axis surface are you ????

I think not... Soooo the builders know their machine in and out, they know the control that they put on it in and out (they have to to set it up Right ???)

Make them supply or include in the purchase price a post and also any tweaking or upgrades for some period.

After all the most powerfull (expensive) machine in the world is not worth beans with out a program to run.

 

Now on the subject of manuals and training..

I can see where CNC Software could seriously use a very in depth manual on 4 and 5 axis only.... Not a step by step for cuting some widgit but a option by option explination of "if you set this to this value you get this result" type of manual with tons and tons of examples with pictures and showing different options and their result.

this book should be 1 to 1 1/2" thick I would pay $150.00 to $200.00 for such a book.. It would be cheaper than the hours and hours it takes by trial and error... heck the first job I whould use it on would pay for it in time savings...

I hope that the good folks at CNC Software are reading this thread intently and are looking into doing somthing in depth for 4 and 5 axis programing.

Thanks all for listening

Eric