Things are slow.

[ChrisD]

Rekd is right. We may never get rich but at least there are no regrets.

As I told a friend of mine getting into this trade. Make sure it's what you really want to do. There's nothing worse than realizing 20 years from now that you are miserable at your job. Money isn't everything ---sometimes. As far as the business goes, this is one of those lines of work where you have to really like it-- good times or bad.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

The machinist/moldmaker/tool and die maker/(hope I did not offend anyone) is the single most important person on earth if you think about it. Because without them NOTHING could ever be produced/made/manufactured. Not even so much as a pencil that some "paper pusher" uses was untouched in some way by a machinist. They have my utmost respect and I for the life of me can't figure out why they are so looked down upon by "the establishment".

Just something to think about.

------------------

James M.

[KMaynard]

Gee James,

If you didn't seem like such a nice guy I'd swear there were other motives to the things you said about us ...

Kev

[Rekd™]

Correct, James!!

Look at everything, I mean EVERYTHING around you, and I guarantee that 99.9% of what you see has had something to do with our field of work. Machinists, (generally speaking), have their little fingers in it all. That should give you all a good feeling.

Rekd

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Naw,

I have no hidden motives. It's how I truly feel. It would please me to no end to see the metal shops all across the US get fired up again and manufacturing get the respect it deserves.

Man, the "suits" have no stinking clue how things are going to collapse in the next 10-15 years after the "Old Guys" retire. Hello to more crap made by $.05 per hour guys holed up in some sweaty stinky slum shop in some third world country. Man, we (in the US) are open for a RUDE awakening.

------------------

James M.

[Bill]

I couldn't agree with you more. When you and friends are out and they see something or you are checking out the car show you can say "hey I made the mold for that" or "look I remember doing those cell phones, what a pain in the rear they were". The end product is our finest contribution to the consumers.

Though nowadays I do mostly prototypes but they have to start somewhere. Right?

[Brian Ulrick]

James sure called that one right ! Everyone nowadays thinks the internet is producing everything we use. When we lose our maunfacturing base from the lack of skilled machinists, etc. its going to be a real eye opener. Of course anyone can be a machinist or " is ", I hear it all the time. The day is coming and sooner than we think. If the unknowing think these skills come over night wait till they try to find replacements !

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

We're a dying breed. For sure. (Someone that can take a sketch on a piece of toilet er, a napkin and a piece/chunk of material and make something useful out of it no matter if it needs to be turned, milled, ground, etc...

The other thing is, companies are less and less willing to PAY someone for their skill. I've noticed in my many ventures into shops all across the US that many shops have a shift full of "Button Pushers", or "Operators", a setup guy/gal or two and MAYBE two Machinists. Pitiful. It's a wonder that more stuff doesn't fall fail. Now I believe that automation to some degree is having an impact on that but still the need for productive, skillful metalworkers is reaching a critical stage.

Just an observation.

------------------

James M.

[beav700]

I hear you. My company has three guys that are paid over $25/hr and eight guys that work for less than $10/hr. Some push buttons, some deburr and polish or do some simple machining ( roughing out stock , squaring blocks,etc). Some of the guys in the shop are really sharp and with little training they could become great machinists.But the managment likes to keep them just the way they are.Reason?

More skils they have, more money thay want.So where the industry supposed to get trained and knowledgable employees? Some think that they won't be needed because of the advancing technology where one smart guy will keep 10 cnc machines running (cutting molds).

I don't know what to think of all this. Is this technology going to help us or slap us in the @$$? I remeber my first job 11 years ago, where I was making forging dies on manual machines with three other guys in the shop, then the owner decided to buy two CNC machines. Since I had some CAD skils, I was the only one that was giving training and soon after that the other two guys lost their jobs because I was able to do three times more work than what I did on the manual machines. Two years later, they decided that shop floor programming isn't efficient and hired off line CAM programmer and got two more CNC VMCs. I became a button pusher and quit two weeks after that. Later I heard that some kid is running all four machines for $8/hr. All in all, four good tool & die makers lost their jobs and were replaced by one programmer and a kid that were doing 50% more work than all four of us before.

I got a job in a huge stamping co. in a die shop doing progressive stamping dies. The shop had 14 bridgeport type milling machines, four surf grinders and couple manual lathes and some other small machines.There were 17 tool makers making around $20/hr. I quit after six months to go back into CNC machining. Bumped into somebody recently that works in that place and found out that they got rid off almost all manual machines and hired three CAM guys and bunch of button pushers.All those guys with all the skills weren't needed any more. Employers these days know that they can make more money with CNC machines, off line programmers and cheap labor that will keep pushing that green button.I still see some adds in the paper for tool & die makers , but the jobs are for low wages and usally involves assambly and troubleshooting dies and molds instead of real machining (die making).

After seeing all this I bought bunch of books, got some CAM/CAD demos or educational edition programs and thought myself MasterCam,ProE and AutoCad.Nobody ever sent me to any class or even allow me to learn CAM/CAD during work.I see some of you being sent for traning and classes and I say to myself...Damn, they have it made. But the reality is that not many companies will let you go to work, play with a software for couple months and pay you for it.I spent good two years sitting at home, most of the nights for couple hours staring at the books and tring to figure out how to build 3D models,toolpaths and other stuff.

If everybody will wait to get trained at work then we defenitly will have a problem in the near future finding skilled employees.This is why more people should try to learn CAM software on their own. I wish that there was more educational material for programs like MasterCam that wouldn't cost arm and a leg to help those that want to learn.This is why I believe that it's also CNC Software Inc. responsibilty to provide affordable training material.

 

[Kenneth Potter]

I saw the light years ago on companys mentality towards pushing cheap cheap labor . I use to work at a place were the plant manager didnt have a high school diploma! And got rid of anyone that had any skills & schooling. Guess he figured they were a threat to his position.

[johns]

Here in Ontario Canada there are a lot of shops closing, but we are still at it, though 50 hours is about it. The jobs are thin, but out there. We are a small 20 man outfit but we have a reputation for godd molds at a reasonable price. Our strong point is integrating revisions during and after tool build with quick turn around. Works for us. As far as replacing machinists with CNC button pushers, we have found that the best CNC operator is a machinist or at least someone with 2-3 years manual experience. They have the smarts to know when a drilling or milling operation doesn't lokk or sound right and that can save a lot more than the cost of their wages. On the other hand, I find little interest from many of the employees in reading trade magazines to guage where the trades are headed and preparing to be in a favourable position as the market / skills develop. I'm over 50 and on my own I registered in a UG course because I see a need for higher solids knowledge and ability in the future. The responsibility for keeping yourself "valuable" to an employer is your own.

[gary dunn]

YES ! finally, i found another guy who thinks toolmakers/machinists/etc., are the guys who makes the world go 'round. i can't think of anything on earth that hasn't in someway passed by one of us, somewhere along they way. actually, i would like

to see just one thing that hasn't been touched by the industrial revolution. of course my college educated friends tend to think that if there were no engineers, there wouldn't be anything for us to make.

it seems to cut both ways i guess.

[Kenneth Potter]

Hummm

 

Note to self ######

Buy Pro e

Learn PRO E

I had a guy show me Pro e 2000i last week , I really like it!

Hey Beav,,,, How are the Pro E manuals For training ?

 

[beav700]

Not sure about the manuals that came with proe. I bought mine ProE at Ebay and it was a Student Edition for $55. It's fully functional, except you can not use it for commercial use and all the manuals come on the CD which were good. I bought a book on Ebay for ProE 2000i by Louis Gary Lamit ,bigest book there is for ProE. Paid $62 for it.The book is excellant.

[biss03]

hey beav,

are you saying you got a seat of PRO-E for learning purposes for only $55? One that allows you to learn the software and teaches you?

That is a good piece of information to have if this is true. I'm definately going to check into it.

[Webby]

A highly suspect link.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Webby - I'd edit that post. But that's just me. I just bought Windows 2000 Advanced Server (5 User License) for about $859 + Tax USD. No where near the $99.97 that that Piracy Site is bootleggin' 'em for.

------------------

James M.

[cadcam]

i agree.

------------------

jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

cnc programming &

Predator reseller

email: [email protected]

web: www.ppcadcam.com

Mastercam forum FTP free file support

ftp://www.ppcadcam.com

User: mastercam

Pass: forum

[Webby]

Deleted a link to what was clearly a bootleg site. If it sounds too good to be true, it is.

[beav700]

Regarding ProE. Look in here.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?V...item=1236988325

I searched Ebay and there is none up yet. Usally at the end of the week you can find alot of educational packeges on Ebay.

[This message has been edited by beav700 (edited 06-04-2001).]

[Webby]

Surprisingly, to be considered legal, most student editions of software actually require that you are a currently registerd student in the given field of study.

[biss03]

what would the given field of study be for pro-e? None of the schools in my area (within a reasonable distance) offer classes teaching pro-e. that is partly why I want a copy I can teach myself the basics from. that way i can better understand what i'm getting with a pro-e file from a customer.

Does this make sense?

[Webby]

Of course you are making sense - I'm just letting you know how it is.

The kit listed on eBay is comprised of several components:

http://www.awl.com/cseng/cad/ptc/ptc.html

http://www.mece.ualberta.ca/tutorials/proeng/proehome.htm

The tutorial author is written by Dr. Roger W. Toogood, professor of Mechanical Engineering at the University of Alberta in Canada. These books of course can be sold to anyone.

The disclaimer on the actual software product page goes as follows:

The Pro/ENGINEER® Student Collection Featuring: PT/Modeler™, PT/Render™, and PT/Library™ is available to degree-seeking students, faculty and staff for educational use only.

[beav700]

The link that webby posted was for version 20. This one is for 2000.

http://www.ptc.com/company/news/press/rele...0619journey.htm