Tutorials a waste of Time??? Are they

[Brendan O' Regan]

Thanks Cadcam.

I checked out the book from the learning section before my last post to you about it being suitable for begineers and I did not notice your change to the title.

Nice joke

[This message has been edited by ruffmut (edited 06-04-2001).]

[Bullines]

Ruffmut,

Did you read the online shipping info?

"At the present time, tutorials can only be shipped to the USA and Canada. International customers should contact their local dealer to order tutorials."

I'm pretty sure that any of the UK Mastercam dealers would be able to help you get a hold of these tutorials, though.

[This message has been edited by Bullines (edited 06-04-2001).]

[3D Generator]

Not True

I got my copys from In-House this year,and i dont live the US or CANADA.

But i would like to stress again, they are not worth the money.

[Webby]

3D Generator - Your modified tutorial image and threat to photocopy and post the contents are excellent examples of ways to have forum posting rights revoked.

Linking to a site with pirated software also tests my patience. Last warning.

[Bill]

You tell'em webby! Knock the links out of em!

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Wow! Spend a few days on the Baseball field and look what happens! Whew! Webby's foamin' at the keyboard. 3D Generator's almost getting the boot. Such is life in the Forum.

Now to the subject at hand. (This is coming from an instructors perspective). I believe that the tutorials should touch more on the "why's". It's great that they show the "how's" but add the "why's", and that would make them World Class. So far there are no books that I've seen and I'm pretty sure I've seen them all and they are all somewhat lacking in that area. On a side note, I have never seen a perfect manual for anything so I would not expect CNC Software, In-House Solutions, or Scholars International to be the exception.

Final Verdict (IMHO) all the above manuals are good step by step materials that illustrate principles. If you approach learning from "Principles" not "Click Here, Click there, get this" then you're better off anyway. Understanding priciples is the key to success in anything. That's the thing I try to impart into my students, "principles, principles, principles!!!!!"

Since we seem to be so critical of other's publications, how about either sending SPECIFICsuggestions to CNC Software, In-House Solutions, and Scholars International to improve the publication OR write your own book. I'm certain that if they were to recieve good suggestions they would take them under consideration(as any company would).

Just my 2¢

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James M.

p.s. - I'm not really a "manual guy" anyway except for my Post Processsor Manual, all the others pretty much gather dust.

[This message has been edited by James Meyette (edited 06-04-2001).]

[Trevor Bailey]

I am sure that the person(s) that writes the manuals for CNC of In House have thought about putting the "whys" in there. The problem is, there are so many "whys". This is probably one reason why the projects in the manuals are so simple. The individual should be able to "see" the "whys" for themselves.

Now to move on to 4th & 5th axis. This is the part of Mastercam that could use some help. The writers should give a couple of examples only, but go into length on what will happen at every click the manual is prompting you for.

As fars as "surface" machining in general goes, use the online help as much as possible. I know that it lacks in some areas, but the authors who write the manuals may not think so. When writing the manuals, the authors are considering the industry as a hole. If there are specific things you would like to see in the manuals, let CNC know what they are. Remember though, give a complete statement on what you want. They are not mind readers.

Charles Davis, the San Diego Dealer, has just finished writing on of the best CAD/CAM training manuals ever written. I do not think it has been released yet, but soon. He said in a post a few days ago, that he would be willing to start on manuals for 4th & 5th axis if there would be willing users out there that could offer their input. I would very seriously think about taking him up on this. He is one of the smartest people you will ever meet and he is willing to listen.

To me, learning is all about the individual. Manuals help, but they can only hold your hand for so long. As most things in life, you have to figure them out. The manuals that CNC provides does exactly that. They tell you what the buttons are for. You just need to click on them and see if that button applies to your application.

The last "bit" that I have, if you are still frustrated and can't figure things out, let me know. My programming and consulting fee is pretty reasonable.

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Trevor Bailey

[email protected]

Specializing in Contract Programming

[Rekd™]

Very nicely put, trev

[d0gFartz]

Just my 2 centz but all this bitch`n is why boards go down the drain!!!!!!!!......hey if ya think the books suck take a training class from your dealer,gettin on here cryin and whinin aint doin nothin but firin people up

[3D Generator]

sorry dogfartz,

I thought a forum was fo open discussion,well it used to be,at least back in the Roman days,what kills a forum is the Lack of Discussion.

Im glad that you had something usefull to add at least.

[Charles Davis]

FYI: Your dealer will get a promo copy of the Mastercam Handbook Volume 1 at the dealer conference in June. (ISBN: 0-9711786-0-7)

[We joked that we should name this book "Everything you ever wanted to know about Mastercam", which gives you an idea about its scope and content].

The books just went to print, and are being used at a couple of schools as Beta Sites as we speak.

Target cost is $98. If you want one of these, or if you want to see one before buying, contact your dealer. It looks like they'll be available for mass distribution in July.

Volume 2 is coming a little later this year.

Not selling here (seriously) but you're talking about something I've known and wanted to do something about for a long time, and I agree completely that this is a problem; not just with Mastercam but with any CAD/CAM system I've known.

Manuals say "what", but not where, when, or why. Tutorials use a monkey see-monkey do approach, which still doesn't supply the whole picture, and results of this kind of instruction are no guaranteed.

IMHO, help is on the way.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

If people are willing to criticize(sp?), they should be willing to contribute in a positive manner. Kind of like voting, it seems as though the people that &%#$$#_ the loudest are the people that contribute the least. My students on occasion complain about a particular book. I told them to put their specific issues/suggestions in writing and I would see that the powers that be would get it. I'll give you one guess as to how many suggestions in writing I've recieved.................................. Give up yet?...........NONE Not a single one. So, with that said, put something in writing(not just in a conversational forum such as this) that tells them exactly what you would like and a simple explanation of why. That's it. I'm sure you'd get better results that way, and people would criticize your griping less.

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James M.

[lovell110]

Hey Folks,

How about everybody coming back to earth! Don't forget that with every seat sold comes with an opinion! 54,000+ opinions makes it difficult to write a manual. The manuals get you started! I do 3,4,5 axis machining and lathe work with various axis. When I don't know how to do something I just wing it...Or I come to the forum! Remember "Users helping Users". Instead of complaining pointlessly, try to help the situation!

Those of you that have multiple systems should be the FIRST ONES helping! You guys can help the boys and girls up in tolland the most! So either put up or shut up!

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Quote:_____________________________________

Those of you that have multiple systems should be the FIRST ONES helping! You guys can help the boys and girls up in tolland the most! So either put up or shut up!

____________________________________________

Here! Here!

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James M.

[Guest]

read a book before you learned to swim? some things you learn by jumping in, if it doesnt work, try something else; and some things are obvious.

[This message has been edited by mbowling (edited 06-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by mbowling (edited 06-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by mbowling (edited 06-05-2001).]

[Bill]

I can honestly say I have read only one MC manual and that was version 3 and specifically ,I remember "how do you chain those darn coons surfaces?" since then the only other reading I have done is recently in the solids. The rest of my learning has been DOH! DOH! DOH! DOH!. AHH that'll work Hey I'm gettin good!

[Kenneth Potter]

To mbowling

Huh?? I dont get ya . A car manual ???? A car wears out ya get a warranty when ya purchace it. It a junker most likly afer ten years. Does software files, bits & bytes wear out? After shelling out 20 plus K for what we all agree is a great product ,an advanced techincal manual is over due (Thanks Charles Davis ). I agree diving into the software is a great method to learn. But more in depth (Loaded)manuals for the user to have as a suppliment studying tool is better.

Kenneth Potter

[Webby]

3D - Points earned for the Roman reference.

We do like to keep the forum somewhat open, but this is not alt.machines.cnc. We look for constructive criticism, always with the goal of improving the Mastercam product line.

Two of our Moderators are CNC Software employees, and keeping our supplier happy is always a good idea. The rest us here rely on Mastercam sales in order to put food on the table. Keep this in mind when you post messages.

We also produce the Tutorials in question, and they presently constitute the only revenue from this site. If someone comments that the books are good for beginners and of no use to the super-pro, it's a valid comment. To claim that the goal of the books was to insult your intelligence - and that we're proud of it - is ludicrous. There is definitely a larger market for beginners looking for a starting point than for Mastercam black belts looking to fill in the small gaps in their knowledge.

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 06-05-2001).]

[Rekd™]

"And The Winner IS......"

 

Webbie! by a knockout in round 43!

Please don't forget your door prizes on the way out. Thank you and come again.

Lol, I guess that's prolly gonna be the end of that. I know, from personal experience, , when webby refers to alt.machines.cnc, the conversation is pretty much over.

[This message has been edited by Rekd (edited 06-05-2001).]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

LOL!!!! Mastercam Black Belts!!!!

Two thumbs WAY up Webby!

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James M.

[Guest]

....

[This message has been edited by mbowling (edited 06-06-2001).]

[3D Generator]

Lets try and finish this topic off, shall we.

1.I understand that they are a source of revenue for some people, and that it should be respected.

It was only an opinion, and we all know that opinions are like A**Eholes, everyone has one!

2. A suggestion for this site. Perhaps others will agree, is that maybe some advanced techniques(from the Mastercam Black-Belts) are made available online. Looking through some of the questions on the forum will tell you that people need good reference material, be it from a book or online.Although I doubt we will see anything online,as it will eliminate any revenue in the Future, its an idea.

3 I would just like to point out that I am not a Black Belt! in Mastercam!!!!!

Peace everyone!!!!

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

???????Who hands out the belts???????

[cadcam]

James are you looking for yours?

Are your pants falling down again.

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jay/ aka cadcam

Precision Programming

cnc programming &

Predator reseller

email: [email protected]

web: www.ppcadcam.com

Mastercam forum FTP free file support

ftp://www.ppcadcam.com

User: mastercam

Pass: forum

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Yep! I seemed to have misplaced it. Just call me "Droopy Drawers"!

I think my belt is brown though.

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James M.