CIMCO DNC /Mastercam Ver9

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

I have an NUM 750 F-MX control on an SCM Record 2 ( circa 1994 ) 3 axis router with a limited ram capacity.

I am using Mastercam Art to program it and up until now I have been able to get by with sending the whole program to the CNC and then running it.

I am now generating huge 3 plus megabyte NC files and need to Drip Feed.

Here's what is going wrong.

There are a few methods of setting the NUM to receive different programs.

1. Load from tape( PC) whole program no problems here as long as the programs are less than about 300,000 bytes the PC communicates easily with the CNC.

2. Load a program and run it in DNC mode in other words do not make the program resident in memory other than it creates a 32000 buffer in the program area and is supposed to send to the machine as required.

I am able to get this running by using the panel commands on the NUM which are:: Load- selection 3 from current program- Enter PPR ( punch paper read I think ) - Cycle start - then send the program from the PC and the machine starts up immediatly. The only problem I have had is that the machine is stopping on various blocks IE: N4555, I looked at the block that it had stopped on and the code was simple X and Y co-ordinates no G or M codes which could have caused an issue. So I re-ran the program to try to and see if it would re-occur, it did not but stopped an another block after successfully passing N4555 IE N5210, after repeated reruns I had the same crashing problem but on random block numbers. The only thing I can assume is that it must do with handshake/buffer overrun???

3. This is the "DNC Drip feed setup" Load- selection 3 from current program- Enter PPL ( I do not know why it changes from R to L according to the manual this is what is required it too creates a 32K buffer ) - Cycle start AT this point I immediatly get an Error code 30 if I press the cycle start. Error 30 according to the manual is "DNC LINE FAULT READER FAULT OR READER ABSENT" it is further reffered to in the manual as "data exchange fault".

Now, the other thing that is perplexing is that when I go into the CIMCO edit/send and send a program to the CNC it starts sending immediatly, surely it should wait for a signal from the CNC in 1 and 2 above it does not need to as the machine is in "wait" mode. I also think it is just sending data without a handshake of any description.

I contacted my Mastercam Reseller but he said the way I had the CIMCO setup was correct.

standard serial protocol, comm4, 9600, 7 E 2

17 Xon, 19Xoff

recieive Auto all below ascii32, timeout 5 sec

transmit 1310 CRLF

version is Cimco 4.4.10

What should I look for and what do you suggest to correct this problem.

 

Chris Flint

[savagkd]

Chris,

The settings you have are the same as mine for aur FADAL. The only thing I might suggest is, try a lower baud rate.

 

HTH

 

Keith

[3rdstring]

I agree with Keith, I have seen lowering the baud rate "fix" intermittent com. errors. On our FANUC controls to get the CNC to "pull" the program I set it to send in cimco (similar to your setting but with software flow control and the "wait for XOn" box checked in the tramit tab in the DNC set up).

[Christian Raebild]

Have you disabled the FIFO buffer for that COM port ? If you have not, then that might be the cause of your problems. See http://cimco-software.com/support_transmission.php3 for how to disable the FIFO buffer.

 

You might also want to look for "noise" problems. Does the DNC cable pass close to power cables or other machines ? If it does, then running the cable by a different route might be an idea. If you are using metal cable trays and there are power cables in the cable tray, then stripping the DNC cable to the outside of the cable tray might be enough of a change in route.

 

If neither of the above suggestins solve the problem, then I would agree with Keith and Chuck, that lowering the baud rate might solve the problem.

[Jim at Gentex]

quote:

---

You might also want to look for "noise" problems. Does the DNC cable pass close to power cables or other machines ?

---

Good point Christian. Even if the cable is too close to a flourescent light fixture you could experience the kind of intermittent data transmission problems you describe. I have 2 older Fadals (circa 1991-1992) and we found through trial and error that slower baud rates = more stable data transfer during DNC operations.

 

HTH

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

I today,got another 2 new 9 pin and 25 pin plugs with a hardware handshake set up as follows.

9 pin 25 Pin

1 8

2 2

3 3

4 6

5 7

6 20

7 5

8 4

on 9 pin PC side 1 and 4 are connected to each other.

On the 25pin CNC side 8, is connected to 20

This information came from 2 sources 1, my reseller and CADEM as well as confirmed by the computer tech who put it together.

So I rushed back to the shed believing all would be cured.

Plugged it in and restarted and exactly the same thing is happening, in that the program and the CNC run until it gets to block somewhere around N5500 and above and then stops telling me I have an error, for the first 4 hours or so it said ther was an error in the block. I include the block and a few lines before and after for some clarity ( I am by now almost suicidal and beyond simple maths and G code)

Here is where the "problem" is or at least starts and can be and has been on any of the blocks and changes on each time I run the program.

N5735X5.716Y112.774Z-3.438

N5740X4.573Y111.631Z-3.848

N5745X4.002Y111.06Z-4.107

N5750X3.145Y110.203Z-4.654

N5755X-12.279Y94.779

N5760X-12.564Y94.493Z-4.493

N5765X-12.85Y94.208Z-4.231

N5770X-13.136Y93.922Z-4.059

N5775X-13.421Y93.636Z-3.962

N5780X-13.993Y93.065Z-3.662

N5785X-14.278Y92.779Z-3.58

N5790X-14.564Y92.494Z-3.55

N5795X-15.135Y91.923Z-3.347

N5800X-15.992Y91.066Z-3.243

N5805X-16.563Y90.494Z-3.181

N5810X-16.849Y90.209Z-3.195

N5815X-17.135Y89.923Z-3.117

N5820X-17.706Y89.352Z-2.816

N5825X-18.277Y88.781Z-2.638

N5830X-18.848Y88.209Z-2.585

N5835X-19.42Y87.638Z-2.633

N5840X-19.705Y87.352Z-2.818

N5845X-19.991Y87.067Z-2.756

N5850X-20.848Y86.21Z-3.096

N5855X-21.133Y85.924Z-3.146

N5860X-21.419Y85.639Z-3.068

N5865X-21.705Y85.353Z-3.11

N5870X-21.99Y85.067Z-2.994

N5875X-23.99Y83.068Z-3.078

N5880X-25.418Y81.64Z-3.179

 

Here is the beginning of the program, forget the E60... codes all they do is establish the programs start point DAT1 according to NUM.

%1999

(PROGRAM NAME - DUCKRELIEF99 )

E60000=0

E61000=0

E62000=0

E60000=-2300*1000

E61000=-1300*1000

E62000=80.5-323.7*1000

N10G17G71G90G40M177

N15G=0T=0M90

N20T6M06

( 6. BALL CUTTER TOOL - 6 DIA. OFF. - 6 LEN. - 6 DIA. - 6.35 )

N25G0X-58.544Y141.908M40M03M23

N30D6S18000

N35M03

N40M111

N45Z5.

N50G1Z-4.654F2000.

N55X-59.408Y141.044F5000.

N60Y139.248

N65X-56.748Y141.908

N70X-54.952

N75X-59.408Y137.452

N80Y135.656

N85X-53.156Y141.908

 

Now the reason for putting that in was to show that where the hang up is coming looks good to me and I cannot see any code errors because it is in the middle of XYZ moves no added or altered G or M.

When the CNC hangs the CIMCO drip feed justs keeps merrily on feeding lines to the CNC and it even continues if I switch the CNC off, so for sure it is not getting a " handshake" to tell it to stop sending data and that is where I believe the problem to be but I don't know how to fix it.

I have tried every setting including altering the BAUD rate from 1200 to 19600 and if it is not on 9600 the CNC won't read any of the program at all,and won't start at all, so I stopped doing that. Yes I have disabled the FIFO buffers on the serial Port.

I have had a number of errors generated where it also says I have a "Plotter or DNC fault, reader absent or reader fault" so the error is not only block.

I can and have been able to send programs ( short ones less than 280K back and forward with all of the plug setups that I have used so I definetly have a connection that is working and the fact that it runs for 10 to 15 minutes without a problem leads me to believe that the "handshake" is missing and the buffer is being overun.

And Jim yes today and for the last month I have been the hydrant not the dog.

Any more help would be gratefully received.

thanks

chris

[savagkd]

Chris,

 

When you changed the baud, did you also change it at the machine to match?

 

Keith

[cadcam]

savagkd , this is a must change at both places.

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

Yes I have tried all the various settings baud rates etc and am mindful to change at both ends, the CNC seems to like 9600, 7, Even and 1 and hardware.

NUM France tell me that it does not matter what I set the settings to, as the controller is configured to accept any combination as readable up to 19600baud and any of the other combinations and they are sure it is in the PC/ Comm setup at the PC

I have since been advise by CIMCO Denmark to buy a Moxa N5110 to operate the system as a virtual Com port because they say that the problem I am having is caused by the new Comm card only operating at 3 to 5 volts and the CNC needs -12 to +12 for the handshake to be effective.

I have now spent 2 days on this Moxa setup and it does not work at all, (Zip Nothing NADA, replugging all my old bits and at least we can load small programs) irrespective of what I do, so it is back to the original idea and try to keep guessing a solution, while I wait for Moxa USA to respond to the questions

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

just an update if anyone is watching.

Got fed up trying to get Moxa virtual Comm port working,Does not work and the local dealer in Brisbane is hopeless, so it is going back to Moxa, for a full refund. Don't buy one of these unless the rep bothers to install it as it is a nightmare to use with more settings than you can find on a Jumbo Jet.

Now I have also given up on CIMCO ( not enough parameters to adjust )and moved to CADEM from India, NC NET so far I am able to machine about 30000 lines of code without errors but I am fine tuning it and so far have found the software to be excellent for DNC problems and the support on the phone great.

At least the machine is running again after a week of crap.

regards

chris f

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

Still battling with CADEM and still only a short way along what is becoming an impossible path to drip feed a program to a CNC

in desperation

chris f

[Allan]

You need to try cimco DNC-Max not the editor, there is a terminal (de-bug mode) where you could see the xoff or the cts states and if infact the machine is sending those characters back (I suspect the signal does not come from the machine). The NUM control should work great wih a software handshake cable the hardware handshake cable is more robust but adds complexity.

 

Forget the playing with character delays ect. because they will only work when the toolpath motion is the same. (long moves gives the machine more time to fill the buffer and error out)

 

What's with the Moxa card, why do you need it?

Are you sending from desktop, does the on board serial port(s) work?

 

HTH

Allan

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

Thanks Allan,

the MOXA was recomended by CIMCO because they say that the new PC's ( I have a brand new HP) cannot output the 12volts negative and positive required for the handshake.

The COMM port was an add on card as the HP does not come with a COMM outlet.( the card company LINDY say this is crap??)

The MOXA was supposed to "emulate " the correct signal, but I think it is garbage and it just did not function at all, so I never got to try it properly.

NUM say Get WIN 98 and they have given me software that they guarantee will work.

Update coming shortly.

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

I downloaded CIMCO 5 DNCMAX today and gave it a run.

I tested the serial "cable" using a loop back

( there is no way to test the CNC connection, or I could not find it) and it went through all the tests perfectly saying I had a BAUD rate of 115K and all tests were OK.

I then connected the CNC and ran a long program, the CTS RTS ETC.lights on the send panel all light up and ocasionally the CTS would go off ( to me indicating a stop flow) and then relight up. The CNC crashed at around 1200 lines.

I checked everything and re ran over and over, same problem.

Took the same program, unaltered, and ran it to the CNC using CADEM and I got 30,000 lines before it too overflowed the buffer.

Bought a new hard drive today and unfortunately have lost my copy of WIN 98,( try buying that these days) thank god for EBAY, so I hope to have the software and the NUM com for next week.

Level of sanity is about zero.

Thanks to all who have tried to assist.

chris f

[Tom Mortensen - CIMCO Development]

Hi All,

 

Christian mentioned the FIFO buffer, that is the number one problem when dripfeeding. It is paramount that you turn the FIFO "to low" or disable it (depending on the COM port), otherwise dripfeeding will not work on 90% of the controls out there today. For standard build-in COM ports you can disable the FIFO from the Device manager (look for the Advanced button under port settings). With third party devices such as Moxa you might have to look around.

 

When somebody says "Use Windows 9x" the reason is that their software doesn't work correctly on newer operating systems, and not that Window 9x is better at sending data (quite the opposite actually).

 

When somebody says, "use a different piece of software" the again they are wrong most of the time. The problem is in the driver/hardware.

 

This is what you should do:

 

1) Make sure the FIFO is off. If you can’t figure out how (it is not always easy/possible), contact me on the e-mail address below.

 

2) Use hardware handshake if at all possible. Hardware handshake works a lot better than software handshake with most drivers/hardware.

 

3) Use as short a cable as possible during testing. A short cable is anything less than 5m (15 Feet for the metric impaired).

 

4) Insert a delay after each line. CIMCO Edit and DNC-Max supports this. I suggest you try with 50ms. This will slow down the communication, and you could experience “jerking moves”, however if it works then you know it is a buffer overflow, and we can work from there. Notice a 50ms line delay at 9600 baud on an average 3D program is going to slow the transfer rate down by a factor > 3 (the effective baud rate becomes somewhere around 3000 baud).

 

5) If you are still having problems, go to 4800 with the same delay (effective speed, around 2100 baud).

 

Once you have tried this you can post the result here or send me an e-mail, and we can take it from there.

 

Best regards

Tom Mortensen

CIMCO Integration / Development

tom at cimco-software.com

 

Ps. I wrote the serial code in both DNC-Max and CIMCO Edit, and I am consulted on a regular basis by most of the major serial hardware vendors on how to make serial hardware work with DNC – because it is not that easy!

[rjh1940]

Has anyone had good luck drip feeding to a Mazak M-32? We are using Mastercam 9.1 with Cimco 4.32 editor.

[robertf]

vamvany, we had a fadal that had problems with drip feed, it didn't matter what line it read last, it would use up what had been sent then stop, also used cimco . I think we ended up using the advanced settings under serial port, and enabled x-modem protocol, but only for drip feeding. We also had to call the program different from the cnc, I think the code is dncx but that is on a fadal.

hope that helps

 

[ 10-24-2005, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: robertf ]

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

And the latest episode in the ever, unfolding drama of DNC.

 

I have finally got a computer which has the following specification.

Pentium 11 MMX, WIN98, and I have loaded the NUMCOM software.

I have spent the whole day running test programs to try to get the CNC to run a DNC drip feed,NO SUCCESS and here is why.

The tests I did were firstly to ensure that communications with the CNC could firstly be established, so I set up the communications software exactly as the documentation said, COMM 1, Baud rate to Receive 9600, rate to transmit 9600, handshake Yes, exit to dos shell NO.

I checked the input to the NC control and placed the 25pin serial plug directly into the PER port as you had said, I also checked the baud rate on TX and RX to 9600, the cable I used from the PC to the CNC is 1 and a half metes long ( very short ) and is a fully shielded cable, all pin outs are as per the NUM sheets.

I then set the PC COMM port to 7, Even, 1, and Hardware and disabled the FIFO buffer.

I then went to the CNC and transmitted a program from the CNC to the PC which was received, no problem.

I checked the layout of the program which was one of the machine origin setting programs to ensure that I did not have syntax issues.

I then generated a small program 6000 bytes and sent this to the CNC without any problems.

I then generated large program 1.5megabytes and then went through the following.

1. On the CNC pressed Load, 0 from tape, LF, Cyc start, the program appeared on the CNC screen and loaded well until the Buffer overran and the machine generated an error which I expected to happen as I had not set the DNC mode, this was a test to see whether the program would load or if there may be any other issues, there were none.

2. I then set the CNC to Load, 3, PPR, LF, CyC start, the CYC light came on and I then went to the PC and selected 4 send ASCII program, selected the large program and pressed enter, the CNC started and continued to " machine"( I had set the board height above the table to allow for air machining so as not to have to concentrate on this part of the events.

The machine ran well for around 2600 lines of code and then stopped and generated the Error 30 code, ( DNC fault) the PC in the mean time continued to send data without stopping.

3. To cut a whole day of disappointment to a few lines, I repeated the same procedure over and over and still only got about 2600 lines of feed before the CNC stopped, I tried altering the Baud rate to 4800, as well as altering the rest of the settings on both the PC and the CNC and only was able at best to gain about a 10% improvement, But the fact remains that the PC continues to send irrespective of whether the CNC tells it to or not, In other words there is NO HANDSHAKE coming from the CNC.

The above procedure was also repeated using CIMCO 4, CIMCO 5 DNC max, CADEM NT 1 DNC. I have probably run this test over 100 times with all the possibilities I could use.

The facts are that the PC sends the Data and the NC can read it but the PC sends too much data and is not being told to wait.

ALL of the software packages appear to have a similar outcome, in that all of them, stopped at some stage and I am absolutely convinced that the fault is in the NUM NC controller on the machine not sending a handshake I have tried Xon X off, hardware, software, none and even both without any success .

Where do I go from here,?

 

Chris F

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

And the final tale in the saga.

Just today I decided I had, had enough, so I rang around the country and finally got a recomendation to "CNC Man" in Brisbane ( my home town).

He came over and after a lengthly explanation of what has transpired, he said, " I think your problemn is in the card, although I have never worked on a NUM before, do you think you can remove the communication card do we can have a look".

He is a man of many years on FANUC.

Once I had removed the card, he took a look and said " this card is almost the same as the FANUC unit and these two little IC's which are the recieve and transmit IC's give a lot of problems , and I happen to have a few of them in my car, lets replace them and see what happens."

We replaced the 2 IC's, replaced the card and BINGO, all is working well, drip feeding with all the software programs.

So it is a big thanks to CNC man and to everyone that tried to assist.

Incidently the IC's cost $0.65 cents each.

regards to all

chris f

[Philcott]

A fix of $1.30...

 

Ain't that a bitch

 

Sure glad you got it solved Chris. I bet you were about ready to pull your hair out.

 

How is the mastercam art coming along?

 

Phil

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

Thaks for the kind words Phil,

Mastercam ART is basically really easy to use and I have had a "private" training session with Iven from MC over the net using SKYPE (phenomenal program check it out www.skype.com).

The biggest hassle is getting the geometry from JPEG to Entities as there are so many things that influence the outcome, which results im hundreds of open chains even though they white up when selected they do not have to be complete?

If I had a wish it would be for me to be able to get MC to JOIN an entity to form a complete chain when I select it, in other words I know what I want to select and I highlight it. but if for some odd reason it is not in perfect 2D flat and on importing it somehow decides to create a "half level" seperated into a different layers the chain turns white but then trying to toolpath it is impossible and you have to anylise chain/endpoints and it can take many hours to fix some broken chains. I do not know why there is not an easier way, it seems darn hard, particularly if you use the pictures/geometry that I am trying to use which is very complex.

I fooled with a new software program on download free and it has no difficulty when selecting the chains, MC seems to be too picky. BOBART was also easy

Anyway, no sense moaning, no one gives a damn and I have paid for the program ( and maintenance which got me X but ART does not work on ART so it too is non functional at this time).

My current drama ( boy am I having them) was the inverter on the CNC decided to pop a few capacitors because of inferior quality and they leaked onto the circuit board causing a short.

Well believe me when the NC control says "Inverter not OK" that in itself was a mission from hell to troubleshoot.

Well I got the inverter repaired this morning, it worked great for about 1/2 hour and now it is generating a different error, so here we go again.

I am beginning to think that GOD does not want me to make this $200K project work and go get a real job, tha tis of course if I can get out of debtors jail first.

Repair man just fixed it, another thermal relay playing up, no even on the inverter, but it is fixed so maybe we can try to machine some artwork.

have a great day.

kind regards

chris f

[Philcott]

Thanks for the update on Art, Chris. I remember you asking if anybody else was using it and didn't get many replies. I would like to have it for personal projects but it is too cost prohibitive for that.

 

Good luck with the machine.

 

Phil

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

Phil,

your logo looks interesting do you guy's make reels, and incidently if you are interested I can do a few file for you in art and then you can see if it may suit your purpose, feel free to send me some details.

You would not believe it I had the thermal relay for the inverter crap out today but I have just fittes a new Siemans so maybe we work tomorrow.

regards

chris f