Question For Former SmartCAM Users

[jon_banquer]

Do any of you miss the way toolpath editing is done in SmartCAM compared to how it is done in MasterCAM?

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[Thee Dragracer1951]

This would not be a good place for you to stir the pot Jon.

[cadcam]

Well Jon how is it handled in Smartcam compared as I have never been a smartcam user?

 

I wonder if the newer version is like the old V11 of the old owners.

[kunfuzed]

What ever happened to Smartcam? I worked in a shop that had an old version from like '94 or something, but never used it. How did Smartcam handle toolpath editing?

[gcode]

I don't know how SmartCam does it, but I wish

we could change spindle speed as well as feed rate with Mastercam .

[jon_banquer]

Jay,

 

For serious production milling where multi-part, multi-pallet, multi-vise machining is the norm when change occurs it can be pure hell if the user does not have *full graphical control* over the toolpath.

 

Without a doubt full graphical control over the toolpath is what has kept many machining job shops in the Phoenix, Arizona area using an outdated program like SmartCAM which for many years received no updates.

 

The reason SmartCAM is still widely used in serious production machining job shops in the Phoenix, Arizona area is that SmartCAM was built from the ground up to handle change. The authors of SmartCAM accomplished this by giving the user full graphical editing control over the toolpath. Most CADCAM programs today don't handle change very well and give the user little or no control over the toolpath.

 

In SmartCAM you can use all the geometry `creation, editing, grouping, sorting, etc. tools for toolpath. In fact, geometry becomes toolpath in SmartCAM when you give geometry a toolpath property.

 

The simple example I like to use is to explain this is this one:

 

Let say we have the letters of the alphabet that we wish to machine. We start by laying toolpath down on the letter "A" and chain until we hit letter "Z".

 

Now here comes the challenge that almost every CADCAM system that I know of fails at or makes it so miserable for the user to edit that you have to start all over again by deleting the chained toolpath that cuts "A" to "Z":

 

The challenge is this: Modify the existing toolpath used to cut "A" to "Z" and now start machining at say the letter "P" to "Z" and then "O" to "A".

 

I want to know if and how MasterCAM X² can do what SmartCAM is so easily able to do because it treats toolpath exactly like geometry and gives you all the geometry tools to work with toolpath.

 

Finally here is a more advanced example that I would like to know if and how MasterCAM X² handles. This was posted some years ago on Usenet and shows just how totally frustrated many production machining job shops are with their lousy CAM choices:

 

"Hey,Here's a bug-a-boo that's tripped-up all the CAM systems I own and the ones I have demoed to replace the ones I own. The situation boiled down to one tool. The reality of it is two pallets, 10 double vices, 20 Work Coordinate Systems (G54x) and 28 tools: Pallet-1 The Front. Tool One tool cuts on three different fixtures. Each fixture has a different part in it. Each Fixture has its own Work Coordinate System. G54, G55, G56 Pallet-2. The Back - Physically a duplicate setup of Pallet 1. The same tool with the same H/H or H/D offsets cuts on three different Work Coordinate Systems. G57, G58, G59.

 

A) I want to be able to do the work of generating motion on the front pallet only. Complete. Then have the CAM allow me to duplicate the motions on the back pallet using different Work Coordinate systems. The CAM system must know that the edits to the operations of tool 1(front) must be automatically applied to wherever the same Tool One operation was dropped. I'm lazy and feel that the CAM should let me tweak the feeds for the front pallet and have the back follow suite. That is, drop the "motion" on the back pallet from the front and have any eventual edits to Tool One's feed rate and cutting motion update the back pallet "duplicate" as well the front pallet "original".

 

The Work Coordinate Systems must be changeable by Windowing. I'm not going to edit 24 tools on 20 WCS through 120 ops. I'm just not.

 

C) The tools must be sortable by Pallet and Tool number. Let us not forget that Tool One gets used on Pallet1 *and* Pallet2 but with an intervening pallet swap. Nothing worse that watching a CAM system sort by tool and see Tool One rapid through the door of the CNC to work on the back pallet that just happens to be three feet in -X overtravel.

 

 

D) There will be no cutting and there will be no pasting of g-codes - I don't need the practice. The code - no matter how it *looks* - will come out of the CAM system and go into the control. I will then touch off the tools and fixtures and push the Cycle Start button.

 

 

E) There will be no custom macro that, I am assured, will work most of the time if my cutting situations stay "relatively" the same."

 

Thanks for the interest, Jay. I appreciate it.

 

Hope I can get some specifics on how this can or can't be done in MasterCAM X²

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

 

[ 12-25-2006, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: jon_banquer ]

[jon_banquer]

"I don't know how SmartCam does it, but I wish we could change spindle speed as well as feed rate with Mastercam."

 

I hope my post explained it. I don't use SmartCAM but I understand exactly why many shops still do and why others who have changed to other CADCAM systems are so frustrated.

 

I happen to use Gibbs and FeatureCAM right now. I'm not happy with either because I want full graphical control over the toolpath and neither provide what SmartCAM does.

 

In my opinion full graphical control over the toolpath is the single most important thing in a CADCAM system. Obviously many people don't agree with me on this and I'm often labeled a troublemaker for this kind of strong belief. See the post above warning me not to "stir the pot".

 

I would also like to know how a CADCAM system can improve if users don't "stir the pot"?

 

Are you sure there is no way to change spindle speed and feedrate in MasterCAM? I seem to remember you could make this change in earlier versions of MasterCAM but perhaps I don't have this right.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[jon_banquer]

"How did Smartcam handle toolpath editing?"

 

Hopefully my post above answered your question.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[gcode]

Mastecam has several ways to mass edit speeds, feeds, T, D and H numbers. I was referring to a feature called "Toolpath Editor". It is used to edit a single toolpath at points along the chain by changing feedrates or turning coolant and cutter comp off or on. It cannot edit the spindle speed and I frequently wish it could.

 

This thread is starting to sound suspisiously

like a SmartCam commercial. I have no clue what

SmartCam can or can't do. The last time I saw SmartCam was sometime in the mid90's. I've

heard someone dug up the corpse and is trying to bring it back to life.

"Full Graphical Control" sounds like something

an ad agency dreamed up...or maybe its a fancy description for a mouse.

If I remember my CAM history, SmartCam, like Anicam, predates the mouse. When Anicam 2.0 came out with mouse support I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.

At any rate I have no idea what "full graphical control" is so I can't compares it to Mastercam.

If you are really serious about X2 invite you dealer over for a demo. If you're here hawking SmartCam, buy a billboard

[jon_banquer]

As I stated above I'm not a SmartCAM user and I consider it to be a very dated program in many ways. I'm not sure how that can be construed as a commerical for SmartCAM. I also stated the programs I do use currently... neither of which are SmartCAM. In fact I have never actively used SmartCAM at a job shop.

 

Full graphical control over the toolpath is a term I coined to describe to someone how SmartCAM approachs toolpath editing.

 

Since toolpath is basically geometry in SmartCAM do you feel this term that I came up with is not helpful? What would you call it? What term would you use to describe what SmartCAM does with toolpath editing?

 

You're obviously unhappy with the control you now have over the toolpath in MasterCAM. I don't think the answer to your dissatisfaction with how MasterCAM now handles toolpath editing is to take my head off because I raised what appear to be very valid points on toolpath editing.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[gcode]

quote:

---

What term would you use to describe what SmartCAM does with toolpath editing

---

I don't know what SmartCam does with toolpath editing.

I just spent some time checking out SmartCams website. Its looks like a 2 1/2- 3 axis Cam package. SmartCam was in the grave for over five years and that is a dozen lifetimes in the Cad/Cam world. They have a lot of catching up to do and I wish them well. I will be very surprised if they succeed.

Mastercam toolpaths are associative to the geomtry that describes them. If you edit the geometry, the toolpath changes with it.

This associativiy gets more robust with every release. Some of the new high speed toolpaths can even use a Cad file to define stock. That is getting into Catia/UG territory.

From my brief review of SmartCams webpage I'd say they are 3 to 4 years behind Mastercam with 3D

milling and I saw no mention of 4 and 5 axis toolpaths.

There ae a whole bunch of videos describing X and X2.

Click on the 'See the Videos" links

[jon_banquer]

"I don't know what SmartCam does with toolpath editing."

 

I'll try again. There is basically no difference between toolpath and geometry in SmartCAM. All toolpath is in SmartCAM is geometry that is given a toolpath property. What this means is that all the tools you use to create and edit geometry you can use for toolpath editing. *Since there is so little difference between geometry and toolpath in SmartCAM you don't need a seperate toolpath editor*... you just use the same tools that you used to create, edit and group geometry for toolpath.

 

In my opinion this is how all CADCAM programs should work.

 

I hope this explination is clearer.

 

I agree that SmartCAM is many years behind in many areas but not when it comes to what is important to me... the ability to have full graphical control over the toolpath.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[gcode]

Mastercam uses wireframe, solids and surfaces to define toolpaths. If you make minor edits to the

geometry, you just regenerate and move on. Major edits may break the link between geometry and toolpath. In that case, you will have to reselect your geometry.

This is one of dozens of elements that make a good CAM pacakge. I don't think it is nearly as important as you seem to. Take some time to check X2 out. If you think "Full Graphical Control"

is cool, you ain't seen nothin' yet ;

Try High Speed Rest Roughing with a CAD file to define your stock. Thats cool

[jon_banquer]

"Major edits may break the link between geometry and toolpath. In that case, you will have to reselect your geometry."

 

Okay. Lets discuss deleting the toolpath and reselecting the geometry and now make this the focus.

 

Not every toolpath change happens because of a geometry change. Sometimes you see a better way to do something, sometimes a different part gets shoved in the mix, sometimes... who knows... change happens all the time in a small machining job shop doing very short runs.

 

I fail to see why any CAM user should ever be forced to delete the existing toolpath and start all over. I'm sorry... I just can't accept that this makes sense. It seems to me the reason one often has to do this is to overcome a design limitation of their CAM system.

 

"If you think "Full Graphical Control" is cool"

 

I think full graphical control over the toolpath is mandatory when doing serious production milling. See the advanced example above.

 

Why should toolpath be the "dumb blond"?

 

Why shouldn't toolpath be as "intelligent" as geometry?

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[cadcam]

Jon The light Just cam on.

So how have you been we have or should I say I have not seen you aroung the boards for a while.

 

Did't you use to live out here in Cali if I remember?

 

I remember talking to you in the past about MC.

So you are back to test us again?

 

Hey! Thanks for answer my question and Smartcam was revived a few years ago by another owner as the brothers that owend it sold out.

[cadcam]

Jon we do not have to start over we can use most of the time the exits info and just tweak to the change.

We also have Change recanetion to help with model changes that Happen in the shops every day.

 

you must be hating it as I know that mastercam handles alot better then Gibbs does.

[jon_banquer]

"Did't you use to live out here in Cali if I remember?"

 

Lived in Connecticut for 36 of my 45. Then Florida for about 1 1/2 and then Arizona. I have a girlfriend in San Diego, CA who wants me to move but I fail to see where that would be a good move career wise.

 

"So you are back to test us again?"

 

 

I'd like to move to MasterCAM. MasterCAM is in the top 3 of CADCAM systems used in Phoenix. The other 2 are Gibbs and FeatureCAM. I see the massive amount of work put into creating MasterCAM X and I'm impressed.

 

I'm hoping starting this thread is productive and starts what I think is a very important dialog on toolpath editing and what is really needed in MasterCAM X rather than having those who don't like my strong opinions railroad the thread and start in with personal attacks.

 

I don't see SmartCAM in my future. I'm not sure if I see MasterCAM in my future because I don't know how CNC Software feels about what I have posted in regards to what I call "Graphical Toolpath Editing". I tend to like to find descriptive words for things that are important to me. I'm sure someone here remembers... Seamless, Unified, Hybrid when it came to how I think a CAD modeler should work.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[gcode]

quote:

---

I fail to see why any CAM user should ever be forced to delete the existing toolpath and start all over

---

Who said anything about deleting and starting over??? I edit a chain and the toolpath goes dirty. If its a simple edit, I just hit regen and I'm done. If its a major edit, I MAY have to rechain the geometry, but all the toolpath parameters are still there.

Are you talking about the ability to drag the geometry (and toolpaths) around?? That might be useful for simple facing and contour cuts, but that's probably less than 10% of what I do with Mastercam

[cadcam]

quote:

---

I'm not sure if I see MasterCAM in my future because I don't know how CNC Software feels about what I have posted in regards to what I call "Graphical Toolpath Editing".

---

Jon CNC would not have a issue with this.If it is a great tool that people ask for then they will do there best to implement this in.

 

I remember some of your posts over the say last seven years or so.

 

I did not remeber you at first when I posted, but I was wondering what you were asking about and felt there was nothing wrong with you asking.

 

When are you coming back to CNCzone?

[jon_banquer]

"you must be hating it as I know that mastercam handles alot better then Gibbs does."

 

Gibbs allows multiple feeds and speeds on a single toolpath.

 

Gibbs geometry construction tools are *point based* and I don't believe that point based geometry construction is the way to go in many cases. On the Gibbs Web Forum Bill Gibbs has been asked by Gibbs users for traditional geometry tools and his response is that point based geometry tools are the only way to go. Needless to say I don't agree and based on that thread in the Gibbs Web Forum neither did any of the Gibbs users posting to that thread... all of who were ignored.

 

When you create user named coordinate systems in Gibbs you can not reorder them so that the postprocessor will pick up the new order and progressively create G54, G55, G56, etc. You have to hope you created your user named coordinate systems in their final order to start with. Nice, huh?

 

Gibbs has many nice tools but it does not have the power that SmartCAM does because Gibbs geometry tools are so weak. Toolpath is geometry in Gibbs but because the geometry tools are so weak this is not enough.

 

Also, after many years there is still only one level of undo in Gibbs.

 

The biggest problem I see with Gibbs is Bill Gibbs doesn't listen to those who are not happy and post on the Gibbs Web Forum. I am not one of those users as I don't post there. Instead I e-mail Bill Gibbs with what I see as problems. For the most part I get exactly the same treatment via e-mail as those who post on the Gibbs Web Forum asking for much needed changes. Many of those posters are not real happy because of the lack of progress in many areas.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[jon_banquer]

"Jon CNC would not have a issue with this.If it is a great tool that people ask for then they will do there best to implement this in."

 

Does Mike Rosa still work for CNC Software? Does Mike Rosa post here?

 

"I did not remeber you at first when I posted, but I was wondering what you were asking about and felt there was nothing wrong with you asking."

 

Trust me... lots of people will not be happy that I am posting here.

 

"When are you coming back to CNCzone?"

 

When the owner of CNCzone puts CADCAM users before CADCAM advertisers.

 

Hard hitting legit critisim of say BobCADCAM is not allowed on CNCzone.

 

Interesting though it is allowed on the DelCAM forums.

 

Check out this thread.

 

http://forum.delcam.com/viewtopic.php?t=1459

 

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[jon_banquer]

"I MAY have to rechain the geometry, but all the toolpath parameters are still there."

 

Not sure what this really means. Would it be possible for you to describe how MasterCAM X² would handle the alphabet example I gave above. This would be very helpful to my understanding of how MasterCAM X² handles changes to the toolpath.

 

Thanks,

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[gcode]

quote:

---

The challenge is this: Modify the existing toolpath used to cut "A" to "Z" and now start machining at say the letter "P" to "Z" and then "O" to "A".

---

The original toolpath would have been window chained with the bottom corner of A picked as the starting point.

 

To modify per your request you'd right click

Geometry and choose rechain all. Window chain from P thru Z and pick the the bottom of P as a

starting point. Then "add a new chain, window chain from A to O and pick an endpoint in O

as a starting point. Then regen the toolpath.

It would take about 30 seconds max.

[gcode]

quote:

---

Gibbs has many nice tools but it does not have the power that SmartCAM does because Gibbs geometry tools are so weak

---

I've never used Gibbs , but I've sat through numerous demos. Every one of them started with

"We'll import this model and...."

[Guest]

Not trying to be a smartazz Jon but if you are so locked in to how it "was" done in Smartcam and you can not find that functionality or for that matter any functionality to make you happy, then perhaps it is time for you to become a software developer, create what "you" think everyone else wants and put it out for sale. Maybe you will find out you are correct, maybe you'll find out you're way off base.

 

 

As far as how MC's tool path editor works gcode covered most of it but to speak directly to your question it is a point editing system. You cannot however just pick on a point and edit it graphically. You must go through the editor and find the point you wish to edit. If the geometry changes, then you modify your existing geometry, and simply rechain using the already existing information about the cut, a rechain simply places the "new" geometry into the already created operation. No need to redo the entire OP.