Question For Former SmartCAM Users

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...Seemed to me what really happened was you and Bottlebob got into a fight and you packed up and left...

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Actually this place happened. I think it was a better career move.

 

The crack about sweeping floors was in reference to a crack you made about yourself, or perhaps Bottlebob, or one of the other posters about you. I believe it was in jest ( If I forgot to put a smily face, I apologize - I meant no disrespect).

[jon_banquer]

"The crack about sweeping floors was in reference to a crack you made about yourself, or perhaps Bottlebob, or one of the other posters about you. I believe it was in jest ( If I forgot to put a smily face, I apologize - I meant no disrespect)."

 

No problem. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...In my opinion there is "something inherently wrong" when a MasterCAM user is not able to do things like graphically change feedrates and spindle speeds while pocketing and must resort to creating macros and using the post language to get the job done.

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It can be done with Mastercam's Toolpath Editor. Perhaps you should check your prescription on your specs.

 

Unless you can authoratatively speak about Mastercam and it's features, I suggest you refrain. For your own good of course.

 

No where did I mention using Custom MACRO B to fix any of Mastercam's supposed lacks. Mastercam should handle toolpath plain and simple.

 

Without Custom MACRO B, how do you suppose we handle things like ..... oh.... PROBING??? Tool Life Management???? In machine SPC???? Tool Breakage Detection??? No wait, those features suck and Production Shops NEVER use those features right???

 

You're right about one thing thoughm there is more to life than CAD/CAM, without machining, there would be no reason for CAD/CAM. This forum o of course more slanted towards Mastercam but no manufacturing question is off limits. It's a great site and lacks nothing.

[kunfuzed]

quote:

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It is often desirable when milling thin walls to change the feedrate and spindle speed when entering and exiting corners... especially if you don't want to rip the walls down.

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I have never had the need or heard of changeing spindle speeds mid cut. Especially on an older machine, that would cause you to dwell. But if you feel that's really neccassary(any speed/feed you want), Mastercam will still do that for you. Granted it won't be the same way or take as long as Smartcam, but you can still do it.

 

quote:

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So you believe a CADCAM system can be created / that exists that will know how to handle every instance that comes up in a machining job shop?

 

"For instance, Mcam has a "Thin Wall" feature in it's poceting routine that makes it unneccasary to edit the toolpath. I beleive the demo cd has an example."

 

Does it? What it looks like is a way for a percentage to be applied to slow down in the corners... hardly the control that is often needed when you do thin wall parts with an older CNC control.

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Now this right here tells me you know nothing about Mastercams Thin wall feature, since it works nothing like that(I think your confusing it with highfeed), and the "Magic Button" opens up a new dialog for user input, it doesn't think for you, and it works on any vintage cnc that reads G-code.

 

Now eat me...

[jon_banquer]

"Now this right here tells me you know nothing about Mastercams Thin wall feature..."

 

Never said I did.

 

Care to describe how it works like I try and do when I'm giving SmartCAM or Gibbs examples.

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

[jon_banquer]

"It can be done with Mastercam's Toolpath Editor. Perhaps you should check your prescription on your specs."

 

I don't believe our old version of MasterCAM has a toolpath editor. Not real sure as MasterCAM was replaced with FeatureCAM and Gibbs because the owner and machinists here prefer a more modern UI and a more graphical approach compared to the old DOS menu style of UI that MasterCAM had pre X. They also like the fact that classes are available for both Gibbs and FeatureCAM at out local community college... Gateway. Last I checked MasterCAM classes were not offered. I will check again tommorow and see if this has changed.

 

Is there a screen shot on the CNC Software site showing the MasterCAM X² toolpath editor so I can get a much better idea of what you are talking about?

 

"Unless you can authoratatively speak about Mastercam and it's features, I suggest you refrain. For your own good of course. "

 

I'm not sure I want to be a MasterCAM expert at this point. Seems like not enough graphical control over the toolpath exists in X² yet.

 

I also have some nagging doubts about solid cut part verification for 4th axis work.

 

"but no manufacturing question is off limits."

 

Nice to hear this.

 

 

Jon Banquer

Phoenix, Arizona

 

[ 12-29-2006, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: jon_banquer ]

[New Job]

A a former featurecam user ('98-'00), IMNSHO, anyone that switched to featurecam from Mastercam, did so for reasons other than the ability of the software. I feel the restrictions built into featurecam necessitated a way to correct the toolpath output, as the post customization was just horrid. I spent more time trying to get output that was usable than setting up the features, which I felt took way too long. For me featurecam and Mastercam are not even in the same class of software.

[Zoober]

I've used Gibbs since '88 on a mac SE then SE/30, and knew Bill quite well (and you, my friend, are NO Bill Gibbs! ), as we were one of the first dealers in Norcal to hawk his product. I was around when he first introduced the little trackball and tiling. At that time, I believe that it was the best product.

 

I will not disrespect Bill or his product, but to compare MC and Gibbs, is to not know both products (as you surely don't), or to be so single-minded that you can't get past one feature.

 

You never answered my question about what AZ shops, so I cannot assume your experience level. But, you must know that programing CNCs, from little Fadals and Haas's to full blown Horizontal FMC's is not a siimple task.

The more tools - Macros, post customization, ease of use, CAD import/export, and yes, even "GTE" - that are at our disposal, the easier our jobs become. I use many tools, MC, Catia, editors, compare programs, etc, and really would not want to give up any one of them.

I have modified posts (often with help from the fine folks here or my reseller)to include automation for our Renishaw and Blum systems that are used on virtually every part. I do not have to leave MC to create probing, laser tool breakage detection, or redundant tool replacement using tool monitoring. Can your CAM system do that?

 

I think that you need to pick up a demo and see for yourself the possibilities of MC instead of trashing a product due to one lacking (in your NSHO)feature.

 

then, and only then, can you make an educated opinion. Until then, Buh Bye!

 

Oh, and you might need this!

 

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

hey guys quit responding to this thread he will go on forever

just drop it and he will go away

[Zoober]

Awww Rick, yer no fun!

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

I know I just hate arguing with a brick wall

he thinks hes a know it all and is so set in his mind that he cant pull it out of his rectum.

I have used smartcam since it was black and white, esprit, gibbs, and some I cant remember.

But overall hands down mcam is the best.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...hey guys quit responding to this thread he will go on forever

just drop it and he will go away...

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Agreed. It's to the point that it's not going any further and we've answered his issues about GTE but still insists that Mastercam does not have the feature.

 

So rather than continue to let's let this thread die. Any SmartCAM users on the fence looking at this thread will be able to gather enough information about MasterCAM features vs. SmartCAM features.

 

Next topic...

[crazy^millman]

quote:

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Not real sure as MasterCAM was replaced with FeatureCAM and Gibbs

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Yet you are the leading expert about what all Cad/Cam systems should have so please shed some light where 2 Cad/Cam systmes make more sense than 1 Cad/Cam system.

 

 

quote:

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No limit, that I know of, to the amount of Utility Markers you can have on a single toolpath

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How much time does this take on a 20 foot to 30 foot 300 to 500 pockets airframe structure?

 

 

quote:

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hardly the control that is often needed when you do thin wall parts with an older CNC control.

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This answers alot of the problems I see you having thus creating the need you feel are short comings in Cad/Cam systems that do have this feature you so require. These older CNC controls require the changes you need to make for the old techonolgy work in today globals market place. It is the limits of equipment that limit your ability to make more modern cutting tools, toolpaths and machining methods works thus requiring what you see as a need to change things to suit the equipment and not really the needs of newer more moder equipment that have some many features and controls alot of what you need to make your equipment do what you want work drive this dicussion verse the true need of most Cad/Cam users in todays every chaging and growing world of Manufacturing.

 

The old adatage time is money realy applies in this conversation. How much longer does it take you to change all of these points. For dicussions sake it takes you 5 seconds per point and you only need to change 3000 points. That is 15000 seconds which would be a little over 4 hours. Now this is needed in your situation becuase the your machines limits and not really the limits of Mastercam and its ability to make toolpaths or the need to change them. So when you have a machine that can run 400 ipm( which is very slow by today's standards ) and this machine has highfeed capabilites do or do you not use the machines ability to accl/deccl as it knows it should or do you take the time to do it for it since the only way you know is to do it for it.

 

When running a 15,000 rpm spindle do you really want to kick that tool down to 500 rpms in a corner becuase you think it is needed to take that whole wall in one pass verse machining it using a Data flute endmill that is necked-down to work along with the highspeed machining practices?

 

Limits of your equipment are what I see driving this not limits of Mastercam. Not once have you answered questions realted to machining it has all been related to your opinion of Mastercam as expressed here:

quote:

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Graphical Toolpath Editing is for those who know and can use what powerful CADCAM systems like say UG Manufacturing, WorkNC, DelCAM PowerMill, WorkNC, SmartCAM, etc. offer in MasterCAM.

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I would love to see a break down of your years of experience in each of the above mentioned Cad/Cam systems and seeing as you just said your company now only has 2 I would love to hear you show us how you have used the others and kept current with their capabilites and abilites as well as keeping up with Gibbs and FeatureCam?

 

Keep it going it great with me becuase all you got is one slanted part of a lopsided equation working against the very thing you keep saying is so required and so needed that us dumba$$ Mastercam people so lack and thus makes us so lacking as well by not having this dismmising any years of experience we may have or jobs that we make a living at using Mastercam.

[Charles Davis]

A little history some of you might find interesting. I was the #32 employee of Point Control Company (Smartcam) in 1987.

 

Smartcam (goof name: StupidCAM as it came to be known by the mid-1990's) grew up in a kind of organic way. That is, it started as a really simple CAM system, a kind of graphic calculator, where you essentially drew the toolpath.

 

So, the "ability" to graphically edit toolpath was not some pre-conceived act of brilliance, it's just a byproduct of how the software started.

 

The inability to break the link between CAD geomety and toolpath was the achilles heel of Smartcam, and killed the product once surface modeling and machining emerged. Smartcam was slow to accept the fact that you HAD to evenually de-couple the two.

 

Jerry Blakely who was the CEO of Point Control was a brilliant business and marketing guy. (I believe Jerry took a buy out in the mid 1990's, smart move).

 

The other partner, who I won't name, was quite stubborn and unwilling to accept that anyone's else's idea of things could be better, and he was very reluctant to "let go" and let really good people influence the product.

 

Their business policies towards their dealers got really goofy too. To sum it up, they "beat the horses" pretty bad, taking an arrogant and bullying approach to dealers, and blaming dealers when their sales were slow, rather than accepting that their architecture just wasn't keeping up anymore.

 

Perhaps this did happen, but I was long gone and out of touch with the company by then.

 

When I delt with Smartcam, I used to look as Mastercam and get almost teary-eyed. About every 5 seconds I'd be saying to myself, "Man, that's how it ought to be done". When I got my chance to change ships in 1994, I leaped at it.

 

Some day someone should write a book about Point Control Company. It is a fascinating study in business.

 

I'll always be grateful to Jerry Blakely for giving me a start in this business. I learned a heck of a lot working for Point Control in tech support. I also left a few good friends there who were brilliant programmers (Edwin Wise in particular).

 

Until the mid 1990's, Point Control and CNC Software were neck-to-neck in sales. After that, CNC took off and Point died a slow, painful, long, agonizing death.

[Don S at Barefoot CNC South]

If you are running entire jobs at a single feed rate, your shop is not running as efficiently as it could. By optimizing the feed rate to suit the moment-by-moment cutting conditions, you can save time, tool wear, and money.

 

NC programmers can reduce machining time by up to 50% and also extend tool and machine life by using Mastercam’s Feed Rate Optimization. Feed Rate Optimization automatically modifies NC programs to make them run faster and more efficiently. It can optimize any 2- or 3-axis toolpath based on the volume of material being removed and machine tool limitations to produce efficient, varied feed rates tailored to the specific job at hand.

 

Mastercam’s Feed Rate Optimization is simple – the feed rate decreases when the tool is removing more material and increases when it is removing less. This lets the machine run at continuously optimized feed rates and keeps a more constant chip load on the cutter for faster job completion.

 

With Feed Rate Optimization sharp direction changes are kept to a minimum to prevent servo lag, tool deflection, poor finish, and unnecessary machine tool wear. Based on the part and machine, Mastercam decreases the rate as the tool approaches a corner, adjusts the feed rate around corners, and gradually increases the rate as the tool leaves the corner, producing a smoother entry and exit.

 

Every machine has its own “maximum efficiency zone” where it runs as fast as possible without damaging itself or producing off-tolerance parts. Mastercam’s high feed machining will help you find that zone and let you save that information for future use.

[Charles Davis]

A little history some of you might find interesting. I was the #32 employee of Point Control Company (Smartcam) in 1987.

 

Smartcam (goof name: StupidCAM as it came to be known by the mid-1990's) grew up in a kind of organic way. That is, it started as a really simple CAM system, a kind of graphic calculator, where you essentially drew the toolpath.

 

So, the "ability" to graphically edit toolpath was not some pre-conceived act of brilliance, it's just a byproduct of how the software started.

 

The inability to break the link between CAD geomety and toolpath was the achilles heel of Smartcam, and killed the product once surface modeling and machining emerged. Smartcam was slow to accept the fact that you HAD to evenually de-couple the two.

 

Jerry Blakely who was the CEO of Point Control was a brilliant business and marketing guy; and a great man too. (I believe Jerry took a buy out in the mid 1990's, smart move).

 

The other partner, who I won't name, was quite stubborn and unwilling to accept that anyone's else's idea of things could be better, and he was very reluctant to "let go" and let really good people influence the product.

 

Their business policies towards their dealers got really goofy too. To sum it up, they "beat the horses" pretty bad, taking an arrogant and bullying approach to dealers, and blaming dealers when their sales were slow, rather than accepting that their architecture just wasn't keeping up anymore.

 

Perhaps this did happen, but I was long gone and out of touch with the company by then.

 

When I delt with Smartcam, I used to look as Mastercam and get almost teary-eyed. About every 5 seconds I'd be saying to myself, "Man, that's how it ought to be done". When I got my chance to change ships in 1994, I leaped at it.

 

Some day someone should write a book about Point Control Company. It is a fascinating study in business.

 

I'll always be grateful to Jerry Blakely for giving me a start in this business. I learned a heck of a lot working for Point Control in tech support. I also left a few good friends there who were brilliant programmers (Edwin Wise in particular).

 

Until the mid 1990's, Point Control and CNC Software were neck-to-neck in sales. After that, CNC took off and Point died a slow, painful, long, agonizing death.

[Roger Peterson]

charles that was so interesting I read it twice

[Mau7x57]

I used Smartcam for a few years! Then I moved on to newer and better things = Mastercam! The only time I open it now is to View some Very old job files, and we have alot of old files. Used SC from about 1995 till just before MC X came out. Haven't used Smartcam in a couple of months now. Haven't needed to! Switched to Mastercam coldturkey and haven't regretted it one minute!

I'm still a noob with Mastercam but i'm tryin to learn more every opertunity I get. Thats why I'm here now...... Damn my spellins turible!

 

Bill @ North Carolina Manufacturing

[kunfuzed]

Hey Mau,

 

Could you tell me how you would do Jon's Alphabet example? I don't see what the big deal is.

[Mau7x57]

I'd problly just delete the old toolpath and rechain / regroup and recode. It shouldn't take but a few seconds. Keep it as simple as you can.

 

Bill @ North Carolina Manufacturing

[kunfuzed]

Is that in Smartcam or Mastercam? I was just curious why Jon thought it was such a big deal and so much easier in Smartcam?

[Mau7x57]

I know It doesn't usually work out like this ,but "Try to do it right the first time"!

 

Bill @ North Carolina Manufacturing

[Mau7x57]

Thats in Smartcam. But hey I'm trying to block that part out of my mind. To much Mastercam stuff to remember to worry about an older obsolete system. Smartcam was a great improvement over paper and pencil 2D but it still left allot to be desired, compared with the stuff that's out today.

 

Bill @ North Carolina Manufacturing

[Charles Davis]

Sorry. My internet connection was acting flaky, and I hit Post twice.

[Thee Rickster ™]

 

look familiar ...Jon

Smartcam Freeform Machining CRAPWARE

 

I tried to read this whole thread but stopped

in the mid of the 2nd page glanced through

the rest.

 

I used Smart for years, back in the archaic days

up till it was bought out by UG or Solid edge

then discontinued support and upgrades.

 

Used Surfcam with and after that, fluent in both.

 

Smartcam was and is crap. Graphical toolpath

editing, if thats what you call it, is cool but

has more limitations than expectaions.

Labour intensive and 'inefficient', period.

 

You can trim a Z lvl path to any profile in any

gview but you can't tell it to rapid .1" to its

next cut. If your cutting a cavity and have a

rapid clear of.1 above the top of block, it feeds

down to each lvl of cut from the clear height.

Complete waste of time.

 

When rechain a path it gouges on core block type

paths because it chains a straight line to each

cut.

 

I could go on about its limitations but its not

worth it.

 

I cut very complex 3-d geo, and so far Mactercam

is the cats a$$. The new highspeed paths Rock.

Why edit a path when you can use software like

Mastercam that does what you want fast.

 

Lots of software out there to compare to but

as I get to know and master MC, I love it.

 

If you only ever used one software like smartcam,

you may think it is great. Bottom line is it

in the bottom of the pile.

 

Can't even rotate in Freeform Machining.

 

quote:

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Again you are sounding more like a pitch guy than a real person that uses software

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nailed it

 

RMS

 

[ 12-29-2006, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Rickster ]