OT/ Coolant

[Tony]

Hello

I have been using Hangsterfers S 500

at 20:1 ,cutting only tool steel's

I use Vactra no 2.way oil, with skimmer's on the machines as well.

The coolant doesnt smell and I change and flush it out around every six months.

 

My question, Can the coolant still be "Bad"

Without lookin or smelling bad?

 

I am consistantly Breaking out in random places here and there.

So I have been writing it off as

"Must have tangled with some poison Ivy"

"Heat rash"

"Dam Brown Recluse's"

I already have a Answer for the next strange skin condition "West nile"!

Thanks

Tony

[cadcam]

Tony you might have an allergic response to the coolant I have in the past to some types.

[MetalMarvels]

I had a pretty bad reaction to the coolant you are using and changed to IPG SemiSpar HD at a 15:1 ratio in my mill - no more problems with skin reactions but I do have to watch the coolant for bacterial growth now. I also use the Mobil Vactra #2 waylube. Still looking for something that I can use and not have bacterial problems or skin reactions. I have tried a couple of full-synthetic products but had problems with my Stevens plate rusting (can't have THAT!!!).

[grubby]

Tony are shop just switch to BLASER Swisslube.

We had the same problem with many people.I have used it in another shop.With good success. It is very user friendly.They have different types for different uses. Hope this helps

[iowajim62]

We had the same problems with Hangsterfers.

Switched to Blaser like grubby and no more.

HTH

Jim

[Jack Mitchell]

We were using an oil based Cincinnati Milacron product.

The problem was the flow filler that connects from the hose to the drum was missing the restrictor jet tips.

The Cincinnati rep came in with a spectrometer and could not even get a reading since the coolant was so rich, est. 10:1

It has taken me about a month to recover from the beating that my skin has been through.

1% Elocom cortisone crème with 1/4% menthol & camphor - just to get control back.

 

The bottom line, we have switched to Cincinnati Milacron Cimstar Qualstar "C". Disregard the 20 to one ratio that the pros recommend and work this at 40 to one. The machine bed won't rust and your skin will actually remain where it's supposed to be.

 

The exception to this as always, is C12L14 leaded steel – nothings going to stop the premature rust coat unless the parts are completely submerged in varsol or something similar.

 

Once your immunity system breaks down like mine has, you will always be susceptible to the chemical reactions from these coolants. – Use a barrier crème and wash-up less often.

 

Regards, Jack

[Tony]

Wow!,

Am I glad I came out of the

"Slowly being poisoned" closet.I will switch to one of your recommended coolants Immediately.

Thank you again for all of your responses

Tony

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

We use Valcool. It makes me itchy if I leave it on more than a couple of hours. No rash though. We use one of thoe auto mixers so that the concentration is what Valenite reccommends. I woudl guess that the concentration in the machines is quite a bit higher due to evaporation. The operators never put just water in the machines to dilute the concentration.

 

With that said, I have a nice shiny coat! How about you guys?

 

About one of the original questions,

quote:

---

Can the coolant still be "Bad" Without lookin or smelling bad?

---

I don't have any imperical evidence to support my following opinion so take it for what it's worth. I believe that coolant over time looses one of it's key characteristics over time if not properly maintained - lubricity. This is in part why I believe taps often break inside parts with no apparent signs of wear - Breakdown in the lubrication between the cutting tool and the part. Poorer than usual surface finish on parts over time under the same apparent cutting conditions.

 

Just a couple more things to consider when looking over the big picture aside from the fine points made above. Health is the most important thing to consider for me. I have a wife and three kids to provide for. What good is tool life if we've got cancer, skin maladies or respiratory ailments or any other possible side effects that our industry may wreak on us.

 

JM2C and more to think about.

[Jack Mitchell]

One more important note:

Never, ever, ever, let your coolant tank drop below the half full point.

Once you have hit the middle - the tank is destroyed.

Anything added to the mix from herein will separate. You can tell this immediately when you look or touch the greenish colored slime or oil like substance (might be pink or blue) this all depends on the base color of the mix.

Once the tank has been below the half way point, you need to do the entire cleanout & replacement (all of it). Aluminum is particularly bad for the greasy feel or touch.

There is nothing wrong with adding straight water ((even 60 liters (15 gallons) is fair game)).

I have never had a tank go rancid on a machining centre yet. I attribute this to the huge water evaporation, given the openness of a large space. I know that I must watch this – the guy on night shift also must learn this little trick. I have had many a turning centre go bad, but attribute this to the tightness of enclosure. – The door is always closed.

 

July in Canada is extremely hot – hence the bacterium grows, grows, & grows.

We also have tube benders at work. The unusual problem here is the coolant tanks are 2” deep as opposed to 8 to 10” deep on a typical CNC machine tool.

With such a thin tank the evaporation is outrageous, the monitoring of the level is critical to the extreme – I’ve gone through hell with this, you don’t have to if you follow this advice.

 

Regards, Jack

[bstrasser]

Jack,

I don't think there is a coolant manufacturer in business that would agree with your recomendation to add straight water to the coolant. It will do exactly what you said you are having problems with...it will separate and there is no way to fix it other than a

complete coolant change out. Water should never be added to the coolant,the coolant must be added to the water. A system like James (I'm sure glad he's smarter than he looks) describes is a pretty good set-up, but also like he said,it will get rich due to evaporation. A weekly refractometer check would be beneficial to keep the concentration at a desirable level. Absolutely stay away from any coolant that requires biocides,the cure is worse than the disease. Since the harmful bacteria that develops in the coolant is anerobic,it is very beneficial to aerate the tank 24-7,just very low pressure all the time. It won't eliminate the growth, but it will retard it.As far as Hangsteffer coolant is concerned,you cannot check the bacteria with bacteria test strips,it will be so high it is out of range,even when it is new,this is supposedly "good bacteria" that will kick the crap out of the harmful bacteria. I suppose that could happen,I don't know. I think the fact is that there is no coolant currently available that will do everything a coolant should or shouldn't do. Sorry for the long post,but I have spent the last six months in coolant hell,learned enough to know I wish somebody would invent dry,chipless machining.Just one more thing,when a coolant salesperson comes around,run like hell.

[Tony]

I only added straight water to coolant ONCE!

It seperated and The skimmer wouldnt pick up anything.Scratch 60 gallons and a shop vac filter.

[Jack Mitchell]

Tony,

 

We typically charge a new coolant tank at the 20:1 ratio which is usually recommended by the coolant manufacturer. So you run the M/C for 6 hours and realize that you need to add some more. The added coolant should be premixed at a lesser ratio since only the water is evaporating. – The condensed water soluble coolant still remains in the tank.

Herein is the question. Do I add more coolant at 20:1 or do I add more coolant at 40:1?

Depending on the activity of you particular machine – let your skin be the judge.

If you’re running at 12~14hrs daily, then chances are the tank will exasperate in about 3 to 4 weeks. It all depends on the heat & humidity levels at work.

As I mentioned earlier, Cincinnati Milacron Cimstar Qualstar “C” will take the addition of 20% straight water – This will separate only if the tank has dropped below the half way point.

The coolant manufactures will all have different advice concerning a coolant top up. Just as we all have different advise depending on our own personal experiences.

These coolant reps love to set up scenarios, just tell them that you get rid of the tramp oils by deliberately overfilling the tank. It works quite nicely& shuts um up at the same time.

 

Oddly enough I have always liked the TrimSol products for surface grinding and yet in a Cnc lathe, the stuff goes rancid quite quickly.

The culprit for bad coolant lies within the tramp oils (Tonna 68 way lube) or the inherent material contents & evaporation rates.

Nobody is an expert in this realm of bacteria – you simply learn to adapt to your shops choice of coolants and machining practices, hopefully you will have a say when it comes to your own personal health.

 

Sorry for the rant, Regards, Jack

[Tony]

Jack,

My Mistake,

I use a refractometer (sp)

and add straight water all the time!

 

What my reply should have said was :

 

"I only added straight coolant into

the Machine once".

 

I have to mix it, then

put it into the machine.

With S-500 anyways.

[chris m]

Valcool VNT800 works well for us; 5% charge and 3% makeup. It doesn't seem to like cast iron too much though, cuts fine but tends to grow skanky quickly.

 

As for the Vactra 2, we use that stuff in everything and I haven't had any complaints from any of the guys about skin probs.

 

Good luck and good health!

 

C

 

[ 08-21-2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: chris m ]

[MetalMarvels]

In use, the IPG SemiSpar HD folks have told me to use a mix for make-up (for evaporation) that is approximately 1/4 the strength of the mix that I have in the machine. That is of course only a starting point that gets adjusted depending on the refractometer reading on the coolant in the tank. If your reading is low (rarely) you use a little stronger mix for the make-up and less for a tank that is rich. It seems to be working. However, when I changed coolants the coolant guys recommended a thorough cleaning with "The Cleaner" from IPG, an antibacterial cleaner that mixes with water. It was a pain to do it by the numbers since you have to drain the tank, refill it with a fairly strong mix of "The Cleaner" and wash everything down, drain it, fill the equipment with plain water and rinse it, drain it, and refill with your new coolant. The machine looked like new and the bacterial problems seem to be licked. It does strip everything soluble but the paint - the exposed metal in the equipment will rust in a heartbeat so you need to get the new coolant mix in and circulated in short order. As I said, it was a pain (mostly in the back) but it did do the job.

[n_tydingco]

How often do you guys do a complete change out of the coolant (regardless of brand or type)? We had only recently drained and refilled our sumps after running the coolant for about 12 months and this was only due to our company move.

 

We use Blasocut 2000 and on one of our machines the coolant formed a thick greenish blue gel that was about an inch thick (even though our refractometer reading was at about 7 - 8%).

[McRae]

Blue-Goo and the other sticky residues found inside machines are a result of synthetic and semi synthetic coolants. The mineral oil based coolants are most user friendly of all and Blasser is the king of these.

 

If some sales person states that his coolant is the most user friendly and eco-concious, serve him a tall cool glass of the stuff. If he drinks it, buy it as the worst that will happen is a bad case of the squirts.

 

Dermotitis is caused from a host of things and a contributing factor in this is PH. This needs to also be monitored As well as coolant concentration.

 

Adding Water to Coolant.

All soluble coolants contain a surfactant product that acts as an emulsifier. These emulsifiers look and act like a pin. There is a pointed end and a round PinHead end. The point will attach itself to the oil droplet and the pinhead will act as an attachment mechanism to the water droplets. If you add straight water to a coolant solution, there is no emulsifier in the mix and you run the risk of having a second phase in the emulsion (Straight Water).

 

Droplet size is another important feature of the equasion. The smaller the droplet, the higher the lubricity of the emulsion. This is why after time James notices that his coolant performance is lower that when new as the droplets under brownian motion have collided and combined into larger droplets. Draw an accute angled wedge and then draw two tangent circles, notice that the smaller diameter circle is closer to the point (Cutting Edge) and will offer better protection and heat removal that the larger droplet.

 

The JetMix units with the Blasser system will atomize the coolant and make the proper mixing ratio to refill a tank. Keep the tramp oil off and the coolant mixing (Thru use!) and a changing schedule of every 6 months and you should be ok. Check into methods of coolant reclaimation, as the hazzardous oil waste can be expensive to dump out...

[Jim Whipple]

I use Valcool VNT 935 at 7.5% with no problems with rust or bacteria...been in there about qa year now

Jim

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

---

If some sales person states that his coolant is the most user friendly and eco-concious, serve him a tall cool glass of the stuff. If he drinks it, buy it as the worst that will happen is a bad case of the squirts.

---

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!

 

Thats' hilarious!

[Jack Mitchell]

Hey MfgEng,

Kudo's for the long tall glass.

Yet, the Mustard coolant might just have some merit.

 

James, I'll drink mine if you drink yours! what say you?

 

Again, I'm not selling coolant - but this stuff has been in a clean bucket for the last week, just to see if it separates, although there is a slight oily film on top - I'll be quick, and there will be a witness.

 

Still mad? drink the coolant, its the easier of the challenges.

 

Regards, Jack

[Jack Mitchell]

Yo Norbert,

If you're changing every 12 months, then please use a spoon. I cannot imagine a 1" thick greenish blue delight.

I'll pass.

 

Regards, Jack

[MetalMarvels]

Personally, I end up changing the coolant about every 6 months. Not really because of the coolant, but because the coolant tank starts filling up with very fine swarf that is almost impossible to scoop out with the coolant in the tank. I also am finding that the lubricity of the mix seems to be substantially reduced if I run the coolant much longer than 6-8 months. Probably due to the lighter fractions of the soluble oil being vaporized during machining and not being fully replenished when adding make-up coolant (just a guess).

[n_tydingco]

Thanks for the feedback guys. :cheers

 

Jack, the consistency of the goo was right up there with yogurt, so I guess I could've used a spoon.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

---

James, I'll drink mine if you drink yours! what say you?

---

Not on your life. I'd rather put LIT cigarettes in my eyes.

[David S]

quote:

---

Yo Norbert,

If you're changing every 12 months, then please use a spoon. I cannot imagine a 1" thick greenish blue delight.

I'll pass.

---

Last month, we had just done the first "clean up" (not change) after we put in our coolant two years. (kind lazy) It had too much fine powder(chips) at buttom of the tank. We used wet/dry shop vac. instead "spoon".

 

We are using 7% Blasocut 2000 Universal made by Blaser Swisslube Inc. We did not get "1" thick greenish blue delight" after 24 months. We are putting fine filter for the tank and shooting for 3 years this time.

 

Blaser is great. It is kind expensive but, it worth every penny. No rust, no smell and cut fine (means no change), just add 2% solution (not pure water) when needed. WE are happy.

 

Blaser website: www.blaser.com

 

Hope this will help.

 

[ 08-21-2002, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: David S ]