O/T Timid operators

[herbert west]

I was just wondering whether any of the board have experience dealing with operators who are afraid of loud and aggressive milling and who make HSM difficult. Anybody?

[cadcam]

I have run in to them sevral times thru the diffrent shops.

 

I take you are this trouble now?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Yes we have a few that will cut my feeds in half. It sucks. I have years of High Speed Machining experience and for them just to turn things down because they don't like the sound of it just sucks. What can you do? It's not really practical to take away all control of the machine from the operators because what if something does happen?

 

JM2C

[chris m]

We also have this problem although we do not perform high-speed machining. On the few milling jobs that we have had that require serious stock removal either me or our other programmer here had to set it up and run off the first couple of pieces just so we wouldn't end up with the overrides down at 50% like James said. Typically once you show the guys [or girls] that the cutters aren't going to blow up, they start to listen to the machine and say; "damn, that sounds GOOD!" Or maybe that's just me..

 

Some caution is good, but too much can be a pain in the xxxx.

 

James, you are sure correct about taking control away from the operator, I've never had the guts to program feedrate override ignore / spindle override ignore or similar functions: VERY scary

[iowajim62]

Hi Herbert,

We had the same thing going on about 5-6 yrs ago.

We run some wild feeds and speeds on big alum hogouts and they would freak out and slow it down.

Then we went through training them that it was ok.

But my biggest gripe about slowing them down is so the people can get overtime ! That gets my goat because they don't understand that we compete against other shops for work !!!

Later Jim

[chris m]

Jim

 

It sounds like you might be a good test case to use the old M codes to lock out the spindle and feed overrides after a program is proven. Is this practical for you?

 

C

[iowajim62]

Hi Chris,

No it won't work for us. We went one step further with our Mazak cells. We went full-auto lights-out machining and we needed accurate cycle times

for our daily schedules. So now its only the verticals and you know how hotshot set-up people

can get about "their" programs. Luckily our upper management saw thru these peoples little game and put a stop to it. Current cycle times are so critical to our quoting-estimating team that they

actually have us whip out test cuts to give them real numbers for run-times.

Jim

[herbert west]

Yes Cadcam, we're having this problem. Our boss wants more chips but our guys on the floor are slowing things down. I don't wanna lock up the programs (Chris M), because the operators still need to have the ultimate control over the operation for safety. We do some pretty large molds that are one of a kind jobs out of mostly prehardened stainless that sometimes take two weeks to just rough out and with cavity depths of about 24" we are now stacking plates together. Our boss doesn't really understand cnc machining too well and his boss is out of town most of the time (and our sim is gonna expire in about 4 days) so things kinda of fall apart around here. I don't want to sound like a whiner but all of the programs that I write I would use with no problem and have done so before. Yes, I have seen guys stretch out the work to ensure their continued employment. I have often though that sending these guys to school might and will probably help, but a man's wage often drives his desire and motivation for vocational advancement

and our guys are a little low on the dollar scale so from their viewpoint what will it do for them?. Especially when their input is considered "complaining" from upper mgmnt.

[Rekd™]

1) Are the hsm programs proven, or are the methods proven? Are the machines/tooling capable of performing at those rates?

If so, then tell the operator to STFU and leave them alone.

 

2) Are there reasons they're turning them down? Parts out of tolerance, tools breaking, parts getting launched out of the fixturing?

If not, then tell the operator to STFU and leave them alone.

 

3) Are the operators higher on the pay scale, or do they have more knowledge on this subject than you do?

If not, then tell the operator to STFU and leave them alone.

 

Nothing is more annoying to me than having someone with little or no knowledge of the situation/application/procedure going behind your back and changing things for no legit reason, only on the premis or assumption that it doesn't seem right, because it's just too fast.

 

I'm the first to encourage thinking for youself, but if it's affecting production, you gotta draw the line.

 

Mayhaps it's time for a group meeting. Teach them why you program like you do, then take them out to the machine and show them that it truly does work.

 

JM2C

 

-Rekd

 

[ 09-08-2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Rekd ]

[Trevor Bailey]

Well put Rekd. Sounds as though we worked in the same shop somewhere before

[Rekd™]

TREVOR!!!

 

Hey bud. Guess what.. Mrs Rekd is preggies. Gonna be a boy.

 

Talk to Mattie lately?

 

-Rekd

[Trevor Bailey]

Talked to MZ the other day. He didn't mention that. CONGRATS to you Matt. Tell the mrs I said hello. Hope all is well. When is the baby due? Now, we just need to pout pressure on MZ & Brooke to "join" the club!!!!!

[Die Sinker]

In our small shop (Haas V2 and V4, Seaburg 120x48 and large Viper) we make forging dies. Each one of the four of us draws, programs AND cuts his own work AND is responsible for his work and production. We are all well paid and the boss doesn't question what's being done. Maybe this is the way some shops should be set-up.

 

Gary Armitstead

Santa Fe Enterprises

El Monte, CA

[Trevor Bailey]

That sounds like the perfect shop to work for. You are very lucky my friend. If only more owners would see that logic.

[herbert west]

Thanks for the advice Rekd.

 

""I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family. Not some

mid-level government disfunctionary with a bad comb-over handing it

out to crack addicts squirting out babies.""

 

What's up with this??

[Rekd™]

Trevor,

Thanks!

Haven't talked to Mattie in months. Almost the season to drag him and the Mrs to the desert.

 

Herbert,

That's a quote from George Carlin. Although he can be a bit extreme, this made great sense to me; I work hard for what I've got, and I get very, um, defensive when all these people that are perfectly capable of working would rather sit on their arse and collect MY money without doing anything productive for the community.

 

But that's another topic on another board.

 

[ 09-08-2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Rekd ]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

---

...bad comb-over...

---

.

 

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That is hilarious.

 

I our shop, we have 5 programmers. Each of us is responsible for our programs. Initially on prototype work we do everything. Program, setup, fixtures, initial 1st article, etc.. Basically prove the thing out from all aspects, and we are compensated accordingly. When we hand it over to production, it's been proven and run at least once. The setup guys will change things to suit their wishes, including but not limited to editing the heck out of the programs. The shop supervisor does nothing or says nothing. I don't even get told what has been modified so that I can change the Mastercam file(s) which sucks because I am a "Post and Run" kind of guy. I hate editing g-code, there's really no need for it. If you've got to edit code, perhaps looking at getting a custom post written might be a good, sound investment. We've spent a considerable amount of time getting our posts dialed in, and it was worth every penny because we can post and run.

 

JM2C

[chris m]

Rekd

 

I can certainly see where you're coming from, but always remember that the way you say it is VERY important; every guy you tell "STFU and push the button" is a guy just dreaming about the day you have tool #9 programmed to pickup the height for tool #8 because you had to do a quick edit on the program. That way he can slam the collet chuck right into your $3000 fixture [at 100% rapid, just like you told him} and smile at you when he says "you always tell me to just push the f-ing button..."

 

Not that I've seen that...

 

I usually try to get the guys on board by trying the team approach [which will NEVER work for some guys} or I get the methods guy to adjust the allowed time down to what I know it should be; which generally gets the production manager to go out and find why the guy isn't making his time.

 

I know this doesn't help you mold guys though...

 

C

[Oppiz]

I recently had discussion with one of my operators about slowing my speeds and feeds. He said that he didn't want to work himself out of a job. I tried to explain it to him that if he takes too long, maybe they'll get the job done somewhere else then he would be out of a job.

One thing I try to do is put different operators on the same job next time it comes in, then I tell that operator how long it took the last person to run the job. Human nature usually kicks in and that person tries to beat the last persons run time.

[Rekd™]

Lol, Chris.

 

The right choice of words and presentation is 90% of the battle. You can get people to do almost anything if you present your case the right way. I was just being figurative.

 

I have actually said things like that, in that manner, and had excellent results, but only because the person(s) involved were fully aware I was joking with them and blowing out of proportion what I was trying to convey to them. This is a 2 way street, though.

 

When I get to a level of relationship with someone that I can openly joke with, they are fully aware that I can and will accept the same in return. It's a way of bringing those below you up to your level. In many cases it creates more trust, better work ethics and numerous other benefits if they know you're willing to treat them as equals on certain planes.

 

Some people, no matter how well you know them, would not appreciate it. You have to know when you can joke with people and when you cannot.

 

-Rekd

[Sean Robbins]

How timid is timid, do you pro's have a program that you can post to the HTP site so that we can get an idea of how much to push these endmills. I would like to see someone elses work since I am the only one at my shop that programs and runs them. I used to be an investment cast moldmaker. I do things now that would scare the hell out of my former boss:) but I would like to have an idea if im even in the ballpark. Ahh I love the sound of popcorn in the cnc in the afternoon

 

thanks

Sean

[Rekd™]

Sean, I don't think it's a matter of the EM's capabilities, but more the machine it's running on. I used to run a boston digital that would finish complex surface shapes in 3 axis at 100+ IPM with as small as .012 dia EM's in graphite.

 

Keep in mind that this machine knows when it can make it around a corner, and will slow down accordingly. Many machines do this.

 

Extremely fun stuff, and it will make some of the old-schooler's step back..

 

-Rekd

[MetalMarvels]

While I still cringe when blowing a machine-gun stream of chips off of a block, I am beginning to learn that in general I can take a cut that is only limited by the machine or the workholding - almost never by the tool (except in smaller sizes). In my case, the machine is almost always the limiting factor - I either run into not enough feed, or not enough RPM (some days a 10K spindle just doesn't make it). Currently, I am machining at rates 4 to 10 times what I was 6 months ago. I rarely break a tool 1/2 inch and larger (well except that one time when the the machine went home in XY BEFORE Z - still haven't figured that one out). Bottom line, I mostly can't get to the speeds and feeds the tooling is really capable of. But I still have a lot of respect for that rather explosive stream of chips coming off the part........

 

Regards

[MetalMarvels]

Oh yeah... and that other time I forgot to tighten the vise (BUT I thought YOU did it....). Never hand off until AFTER the setup is done.................

[chris m]

quote:

---

Oh yeah... and that other time I forgot to tighten the vise (BUT I thought YOU did it....)

---

OUCH!!

 

Its amazing how far an 1-1/2" inserted endmill will throw a piece of stock; isn't it..?