What software for Multi Tasking Turn/Mill Machines??

[DrewG]

We have a Nakamura Tome Super NTJ(9 axis, with rotating B axis) Mill/Turn machine coming in the end of November and need software for it. I was very disappointed to learn Mastercam has just put their new Multi-Tasking software on the "backburner". I was originally told it would be ready for release early '04, however I just learned they have put the program on hold in order to put all their efforts into version 10. It will not be released until very late '04 or early '05. I realize we can use Mastercam for programming individual spindle's, however in order to utilize this type of equipment to the fullest we need software that enables syncronization of the spindles/turrets. I'm now forced into looking at "Esprit" and "Partmaker", both of which offer syncronization. My questions are:

Has anyone here ever used either?

How easy are either to learn compared to M/C?

What does a seat and training sell for?

 

Any input would greatly be appreciated. I was so happy when I was originally told about the M/C software, as it sounds like it will reign supreme just like the rest of M/C products. Thanks in advance!!

[Greg Williams]

Drew,

 

We too are in the process of buying a machine like this and unfortunatly, To the best of my knowledge there is no software that can fully utilise this machine.

Welcome to the world of cut and paste.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I would hold off a bit if at all possible if I were you. Perhaps your reseller can shed some light on "MATSS" for you if you ask them. It is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than anything even on the horizon from the others you are mentioning. Yes it's that good.

 

You deealer will have to fill in the details for you.

 

HTH

 

[ 10-20-2003, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Dave Thomson ]

[DrewG]

James, that's what I was talking about when I said "M/C has put it on the backburner". My reseller said the same as you--"It will be the very best mill/turn syncronization software available". But now that it is put on hold for a year or so, I can't wait. I'm sure I will buy it when it is available, however I need something to get by until than. I don't like the idea of cutting and pasting as I want to be able to see collisions on the screen rather than hear them coming from the machine(LOL).

I've heard good things about both Espirit and Partmaker, and was hoping someone has experience with either. Anyone?? Thanks!!!!!

[DrewG]

Budge--What type of multi tasking machine did you buy, and what type of work are you planning for it?? Just striking up a conversation. Peace!!

[crazy^millman]

Well sirs I ask you this question. How is possible for people to buy any machine and have it coming and dont have done the research for the software needed to make it work. I would say paste/cut may sound bad but I also ask why don't the people who seel these machine have the software deveoplemnt in place to atleast power them if they are going to sell them. I see this time and time again companies devopleing machien but no real good way to make them do what they have desgined them to do. If these comapnies would invest a little in to someone devolpement who ever the company is prefreable mastercam as well as getting something to put on the market they would be soooooooooooooo far ahead of the game. I remember when the Mulittrun started coming out in the early 90's and everyoen was scrambling to run them. I was doing my teeth cutting on mulitaxis the hard way long code and i got the job done that most ran away from. There are people out there in the industry capable of making these machine walk the walk and talk the talk it is up to your caompany to be willing to pay these people for their talnet and ability to get themselves to that point. I think it funny companies will speand 100,000 dollars on machien then want to pay soem guy $10.50 an hour to make it make millions for them. Untill the reality of true ability and tanlet catch up to them and bite them on the arse will they see the need to either be the devoplers or help put the bill for the devoplment. WE as a country wonder why our work keep going oversea it is not just the cheap wages it also the investment in areas to many money hungry people dont do that helps it go that way also.

 

 

Crazy Millman

[DrewG]

Millman, There are at least two companies that I know of making software to run these types of machines--Partmaker and Espirit. You can use most CAM software including M/C to run these as well. The difference is being able to syncronize the turrets and spindles to get the most efficient, quickest machining done and have the parts come off the fastest. If we use M/C, we will have to program each spindle separately, and than cut and paste the program together. We would not be able to take advantage of utilizing two turrets on one spindle if the part was heavily "one sided" for example, and be able to have one turret move back over to work second op's efficiently. It would be alot of adjusting on the machine and would entail a long set up time. With the correct software(ala Partmaker/Esprit), all this can be done off line and would also prevent most crashes.

As for paying guys 10.00 an hour to program these $300-$400,000.00 machines, not here. I pay top dollar to the right people. It's still less expensive to pay top dollar to one great programmer getting finished parts off this type of machine in one operation, than to have several programmers and several operators running the same part that would need anywhere from 4-8 operations on standard milling and turning machines.

[PE @ IHS]

Drew

 

You asked for a simple answer, and here it is. I have seen Partmaker in use for twin spindle/twin turret machines in a couple of shops and both were happy with their software.

 

Get the Esprit and Part Maker dealer to give you customer references, and visit them if possible. I am not sure about pricing, but I would guess that you would be into 10K USD. Make sure to prove out your post prior to paying the bill.

 

Good luck with your purchase.

[DrewG]

Pete, thanks for your response. I would like to go with who's ever is easiest to learn, and price may weight in as well, as I'm sure we will purchase the M/C version whenever it becomes available. I had it all planned with the machine purchase as my M/C dealer told me the software would be available early '04, however now that that's not the case, I'm forced to purchase something soon, and get up and running with it quickly. Method's Machine Tools is where I purchased the equipment, and they utilize both companies software, and they were pushing Partmaker. I'll have to see both.

On that note, how does Esprit compare to Mastercam in general??? I didn't look at it when I purchased M/C earlier this year. Thanks!!!

[crazy^millman]

Well Gald to hear and see it and you are 100% right in neededing to get the efficent use of the machines dialed in. Without that you have defeated the puropose of having the machine to begin with. I hope that these programs meet your needs but I was only looking to make a point that if more of the companies making the machien would be more envolved in these needed softwares then more would be avabile.You sound like a great person and fully understand peoples worth and see you and your company going far and doing very well. Sorry to highjack your thread. I though would take 4 or 5 of my most challageing parts and use them for a good gauage of the ability of the programs and well as the posted program I would alos think about Vericut or some other verifaction software all it takes is one majof crazh and you cover the cost of this software.

 

Crazy Millman Peace and good luck in your endover.

[DrewG]

Millman--You are correct about the need for both the software companies and the machine tool manufacturer's to get together on these types of machines. In M/C defense, I read in their last mini-paper(the thing I receive from M/C in the mail)about how they are working with actual users of these machines up in Mass. or CT to build the software to be the best on the market. From what I've heard, they will succeed. I'm just disappointed that they decided to "put it on hold". Oh well. I'll have to bite the bullet and spend the coin twice.

Does anyone know if you can resell your software? I mean if I purchase Esprit now, and want to buy M/C's version next year, can I legally sell my Esprit? Or does it become useless???? Thanks!!

[crazy^millman]

Yes you are right it does suck in your case for this to happen espically when I think you purchased this machine on the thought M/C would have this avabile about the time you would need it and then they kinda pull the rug out from under you. I am mostly refering to the builder and not the software compaines. Well I Dont know about Esprit but I do know you can od it with Mastercam just have to go through the dealer and usally at a loss so dont know if it would be worth it. It also might be to your advantage to have 2 recousres at your use.

 

It is just a hope I get lucky enough to run another mulitaxis Machine again. I love them and the challage of doing the impossible.

 

Crazy Millman

 

[ 10-19-2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Millman^Crazy ]

[Harryman]

Drew, when we were shopping for a CAM software for our integrex a year ago, Esprit said they could do it, but then at the demo finally admitted that they didn't support B axis yet. Maybe they do by now. But go in with your eyes wide open.

 

Please keep in touch. I'll be very interested in how this goes for you. Specifically, things like cooperation between machine builder and CAM vendors. How is the documentation? Do you get all G and M codes? How user friendly is the PLC logic? Can you fully control all axis? Yada, yada.

[McRae]

Harry,

 

I was waiting to see your Big V in this thread...

 

Drew

I am strenuosly reseasrching UG-NX and there is quite a bit of stuff in there - Price is not the object as you could buy and sell a dozen seats of MC for the ball park we are looking at.

 

What kind of parts are you looking to make with this thing - is it a production job where you program it once and let the machine run for ten years or are you making one offs?

 

I suspect that the machine as specified with all those tools - multiple presentations to the workpiece at one time - is for a high volume job and that once programmed, it will be fine forever.

 

If this is the case - nothing will beat a pen and paper (or for the tech savy - Windows Notepad). This type of a machine is dangerous to post and run - so watch out and always include a line on the P/O - Purchase on Proof of Performance - and outline the acceptance criteria.

[DrewG]

Harry, I will let you know shortly how I make out. The machine is set to be installed right before, or just after Thanksgiving. I printed out a copy of your post so I remember to ask alot of questions.

 

Andrew, this machine will run hundred's of different parts(I hope). It will probably run a different part almost every day, granted alot of the parts we run belong to a "family" of parts. Luckily, its 99% aluminum, and we went with Capto quick change tooling for all the static tools, and HSK40A quick change Alberti heads for all the live tools, in order to try and become more efficient. We will preset all our tooling offline so that change overs should be very quick. We couldn't afford to lose an hour a day or every other day swapping tools.

I'm hoping the programming doesn't ultimately hold us down now. I suppose I fell somewhat for the tech guy's up at the dealer programming and saying "how easy it is". We'll see.

[crazy^millman]

Well Drew one person easy is another person nightmare. I think you are headed in the right directino but have to agree with Andrew on this one. I have got very comforatable but still take 2 sec to look at really diffuclt program just asa insurace policy for my brain. I also would be intrested in how you come out and hope you have luck in your search. I am also wondering if you were going to buy a touchsetter system that was tied into the machine cell to keep also from having to cut and paste the touch set data back into the machine. I like you direction and ideas and I promise you keep notes, Make a bible as I call it of all problem and things you run int ocause a hand written journal is usable in a court of law as evidence been there done that also.

 

Crazy Millman

[Harryman]

Sounds very cool Drew.

 

The devil is in the details, they say. For starters:

 

Sure you can preset tools offline. Ask how. Find out EXACTLY how you will get the presetter to jive with the control. On the integrex, the tool length offset is an indirect number that ends up being the distance from the tool tip to a reference point in space that is affected by several other parameters. Knowing that a tool is exactly 4" long is absolutely useless, unless you know how the rest of the math is done and in the end the offset value will not be 4.00. I don't know how your machine works, but then I don't have to. My point is, these things are NOT easy.

 

Start getting detailed answers on this kind of issue. If there is no detailed answer available, assume that you will be the guinea pig and the answer is at least as far away as your last unresolved question.

 

We'll figure out the details later = many hours of WTF is going on here?

[crazy^millman]

Goes back to what I mean about the Builder so happy to get a machine oput there to use but not so eager to melp you make money on it. All they care about most times is the sell not the customer service. I see it time and tiem again you get a comapny that cares as much about custoemr service as that sell and you will see a company be the best all the way around. That wil mean they value the employee as much as well and that will translate with a win win situtation all the way across the board.

 

Crazy Millman

[SLJ]

Be careful with Esprit! The shop I left two years ago had two Integrexes, The Esprit dealer kept saying they could build a post, but never got one to come close. Got a E-mail from the guys there this summer, never did get it working and have dropped Esprit entirely. Support was all promises and no deliver.

Steve

[chris m]

Drew

 

1) I hope you have better luck with your machine than most of the Integrex guys, at least its (probably) a Fanuc control.

 

2) If you have C6 Capto send me an email and I can send you a list of tools we have that we'll be looking to sell when our Integrex goes back onto a flatbed. I am serious about this if you're interested, we probably have close to $40K in tools with little or no use on them we'll be looking to unload.

 

C

 

[ 10-20-2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: chris m ]

[DrewG]

Andrew--As far as the preset information, I understand everything you are talking about. We have worked with Makino as well as Zoller(Presetter Manufacturer) and Cimquest for both communications and post's. I am currently working with the guys up at Method's on the Nakamura specific's.

Once we move(approx.45 days), I will have all parties involved(the Manufacturer's--Makino,Nakamura,Zoller,Cimquest) working together to make sure the post's, program's, and communications are all in order. I plan on running all the equipment for several weeks or month's before I will sign off on the acceptance letters. This means that if there are problems, and things do not work as represented, no one gets paid. You'll be amazed how fast you receive customer service response when your holding onto their payment.

As I told every dealer's salesman, manufacturer's rep.'s, etc..when I put my downpayment forward, "I can be the best promoter for a company, or the worst".

You better make sure before you sell me something, that it will perform as advertised. If not, you will not be paid. So far, I must say every company has responded favorable. I will keep you informed in the future as everything starts coming together. I'm not unrealistic, and I do expect some growing pains. I also try understand that my programmers/operators are not magician's and can't perform miracles. The fact that we have had only one crash in the shop in 7 years say's alot. You won't find "jaws" all beat up with holes, or tool marks on them here. First and foremost here is prove, prove, and reprove the program before you hit the "green go" button.

 

I also try and involve myself in every facet of my associates jobs, so I can best understand their needs and concerns. When I purchased M/C I purchased all the training for myself so I could have a better understanding why some things take so long. I went out to Makino for all the training on the cell controller, as I wanted to be able to understand the problems associated with this new technology. I will also spend 7 days in training with the Zoller company to better understand all the presetter information. And when I purchase Solidworks, and either Partmaker or Esprit, I will go thru that training as well. I believe that the more I understand about my associates positions, the better they respond. I would've loved in my old job if my boss took the time to really understand my position, and how long and difficult some jobs are. I hated when the boss would just throw a job across my desk at 4pm and expect it done before I went home, like it was a 30 minute job, when in reality it was 3 hours.

I do admit I'm extremely lucky in the fact that the parts we manufacture and the mark up's involoved allow us to spend the extra money and time to do things differently than, say a jobshop for instance. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to try and incorporate some of my idea's and equipment if I was competing in this economy against shops working as low as $35.00 an hour. I would absolutely die.

I will keep all informed concerning the Partmaker and Esprit software decision. Thanks!!!

[DrewG]

Chris--I'm sorry to hear about your Integrex situation. I looked at Mazak, and came so close to buying one, I even put 20K deposit down. But in the end, I just could not get over all the bad stories I heard. I've been told Mazak has the latest technology, and all the "bell's and whistle's" to go along with it, but I had so many shops tell me your same story concerning machines coming in, and than going right back out the door. I have three shops here in my area with nothing but major problems with their Mazak's. One guy explained it to me this way: "The newer Mazak equipment is the Japanese version of Haas". Please do not take that the wrong way. He wasn't saying all Mazak's are bad, he was just upset that it appears Mazak introduces 20 new machines of every variety each year, and does not do enough real world testing before selling them to the public. Haas does the same thing, but at least you probably won't go out of business because the machine won't perform. I'd go crazy if I spent 300-400K on a Mazak Intergex and had the problems that you describe. I really feel for you. I hope my Nakamura doesn't let me down. I can honestly say I haven't heard a bad thing from anyone about Nakamura's, and I hope this holds true. As for the Capto tooling, I just spent 60K on adapters, heads, and inserts, but I will keep you in mind if I decide I need more. And yes, the control is Fanuc 18I. Thanks for the offer. What exactly was your problems with the Mazak??

 

[ 10-20-2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: DrewG ]

[Greg Williams]

Drew,

 

Our machine is very similar sounding to yours, I have forgotten the model number but I will find out.

 

Nakamura Tome

9 Axis

Fanuc 16I controller

Ø440 swing

 

As for software we will be using UG NX if the mastercam thing does not happen soon.

[DrewG]

Budgie--If it has a B axis upper tool turret, it is the Super NTJ, if it has a tool changing spindle(Mazak Integrex, Okuma, Mori), than it could be a number of different models including their Super NTX or Super NTM. Check out their VERY limited website at:

 

http://www.nakamura-tome.co.jp/Top.htm

[McRae]

quote:

---

This means that if there are problems, and things do not work as represented, no one gets paid. You'll be amazed how fast you receive customer service response when your holding onto their payment.

---

Magic to my ears. Drew, it looks as though you have a framework for success. I have a Zoller presetter and the thing is great - They are alos a service oriented company and the guy that I deal with is fantastic and his last name is Zoller!