Manual Entry Simulation

[Watcher]

About Spring.

 

Agree on the other points in both postings. 7.4.2 cleaned up some issues, but no major change to the graphics engine. Nothing I saw at the VUE event makes me think 8.0 will have a new engine either, but could be wrong again time will tell.

 

I didn't answer the question earlier, but yes NCSIMUL can do fiber placement.

 

Do you still have access to both softwares Ron?

[crazy^millman]

Do you still have access to both softwares Ron?

 

Yes I do.

[MIL-TFP-41]

Regarding the customer service. 4 years ago at IMTS I was tasked to research upgrading/changing our aging Vericut seats. I approached the NCSIMUL booth and was treated like a world class @sshole. We spent no more than 15 minutes there. As we were walking away from the booth, I heard one of the reps whisper under their breath, something to the effect of "wow our manager is an pr!ck". I guess he was speaking about that @ss of a manager. Needless to say, they wound up upgrading Vericut, and the pi$$ poor customer relations they had at the largest machine tool show in the world spoke volumes.

[Watcher]

Well, I wasn´t going to say anything else but I think people who know a bit of my history know about my efforts to avoid the same mistakes I did in the beginning of my career...

 

People like us are supposed to share their experiences and learn from others in order to make ourselves and the companies behind us better, stronger, well informed - So here goes my two cents...

 

I´ve heard several similar stories about some solutions in the market... Quite often you bump into people on trade shows that treat you like $hit... they measure you by your cloathing, by your business card... How many times I saw myself being ignored until I mentioned I was there representing GE... Not trying to pose as a victim here... just mentioning that there are a bunch of arrogant people in this business... Mastercam booths have some of them... people wearing suits, that only keep a conversation with you if you are a prospect... The same is true with their competitors... It´s also true that there are some guys like Ron Branch on these booths... So it´s not all bad...

 

Spring knows that in some aspects they have a superior technology... and I don´t know if it as America vs France thing, but quite often French software is technically superior, but their marketing sucks and their arrogance prevails... What a bad combination...

 

If I was a CAx CEO, I´d fire without hesitation people on my team that act like that. I surely would.

 

I´ll tell you a story that occurred not long ago involving Spring:

 

During a dinner after a trade show, where several brands where sitting together, the salesman of a known tooling software joined the table after the invitation of the sales manager of a CAM company. In the table there were Spring guys, this known CAM brand, and then the salesman from this tooling software.

 

After a few minutes of conversation, this guy that joined the table started to feel some animosity from Spring team towards him. He was not getting why, as he thought initially that he was not a threat to them at all. Then the guys started to make jokes about the interface of his software and VERICUT, saying that even though their NC-Simul product did not have yet an interface with his tooling software, they could do it much better than what he was offering anyway... Totally rude an unnecessary...

 

Incredibly, they´re unable to understand that the only reason they had a VERICUT interface in their software was because their customers were using VERICUT, so that´s why he did not engage in the development of an interface with NC-Simul, because he was not asked too. Very simple. But Spring guys, like infants, thought that he had a preference towards VERICUT...

 

They could not get this very simple concept: COMPANIES DON´T WRITE SOFTWARE THAT IS NOT THEIR CORE BUSINESS UNLESS THEY HAVE TO.

 

Later he figured it out: Spring also offers a tool management software, and he didn´t know it. The reason he didn´t know it it was because it was something predominantly found in the French market, a product that was never a direct competitor to any major tool management software out there. But for the Spring team he was a competitor... and their competitors are treated with contempt and arrogance... same like your story above...

 

I often surf through the websites of these big dogs... When I go to Spring website, I see a very nice suite of products, that when you download a white paper you get a PDF in French... videos using software in French, so they say they´re global, but they fail on the basics like documenting and marketing their product with materials written for the markets they´re trying to conquer... That tells me a lot about how much effort they put on their marketing... in letting people know what they´re talking about...

 

This behavior is not something unique to Spring. Missler Software, TopSolid makers, have an amazing CAx product, but until recently, they´re a train wreck in marketing their products in U.S. and americas.

 

The math is simple: If these companies do not expand globally and make money everywhere and not only France, they CAN´T offer a world class service.

 

And how can they expand treating prospects like idiots?

[Colin Gilchrist]

Well, I wasn´t going to say anything else but I think people who know a bit of my history know about my efforts to avoid the same mistakes I did in the beginning of my career...

 

People like us are supposed to share their experiences and learn from others in order to make ourselves and the companies behind us better, stronger, well informed - So here goes my two cents...

 

I´ve heard several similar stories about some solutions in the market... Quite often you bump into people on trade shows that treat you like $hit... they measure you by your cloathing, by your business card... How many times I saw myself being ignored until I mentioned I was there representing GE... Not trying to pose as a victim here... just mentioning that there are a bunch of arrogant people in this business... Mastercam booths have some of them... people wearing suits, that only keep a conversation with you if you are a prospect... The same is true with their competitors... It´s also true that there are some guys like Ron Branch on these booths... So it´s not all bad...

 

Spring knows that in some aspects they have a superior technology... and I don´t know if it as America vs France thing, but quite often French software is technically superior, but their marketing sucks and their arrogance prevails... What a bad combination...

 

If I was a CAx CEO, I´d fire without hesitation people on my team that act like that. I surely would.

 

I´ll tell you a story that occurred not long ago involving Spring:

 

During a dinner after a trade show, where several brands where sitting together, the salesman of a known tooling software joined the table after the invitation of the sales manager of a CAM company. In the table there were Spring guys, this known CAM brand, and then the salesman from this tooling software.

 

After a few minutes of conversation, this guy that joined the table started to feel some animosity from Spring team towards him. He was not getting why, as he thought initially that he was not a threat to them at all. Then the guys started to make jokes about the interface of his software and VERICUT, saying that even though their NC-Simul product did not have yet an interface with his tooling software, they could do it much better than what he was offering anyway... Totally rude an unnecessary...

 

Incredibly, they´re unable to understand that the only reason they had a VERICUT interface in their software was because their customers were using VERICUT, so that´s why he did not engage in the development of an interface with NC-Simul, because he was not asked too. Very simple. But Spring guys, like infants, thought that he had a preference towards VERICUT...

 

They could not get this very simple concept: COMPANIES DON´T WRITE SOFTWARE THAT IS NOT THEIR CORE BUSINESS UNLESS THEY HAVE TOO.

 

Later he figured it out: Spring also offers a tool management software, and he didn´t know it. The reason he didn´t know it it was because it was something predominantly found in the French market, a product that was never a direct competitor to any major tool management software out there. But for the Spring team he was a competitor... and their competitors are treated with contempt and arrogance... same like your story above...

 

I often surf through the websites of these big dogs... When I go to Spring website, I see a very nice suite of products, that when you download a white paper you get a PDF in French... videos using software in French, so they say they´re global, but they fail on the basics like documenting and marketing their product with materials written for the markets they´re trying to conquer... That tells me a lot about how much effort they put on their marketing... in letting people know what they´re talking about...

 

This behavior is not something unique to Spring. Missler Software, TopSolid makers, have an amazing CAx product, but until recently, they´re a train wreck in marketing their products in U.S. and americas.

 

The math is simple: If these companies do not expand globally and make money everywhere and not only France, they CAN´T offer a world class service.

 

And how can they expand treating prospects like idiots?

 

 

       

 

I believe how you treat people is paramount. Thanks as always for telling it like it is Daniel.

[crazy^millman]

MIL-TPF-41 Sorry to hear that happened and was your experience. That was before we starting working with them and hopefully this year you will see a different attitude. I have many companies treat me that way at IMTS, not an excuse or make what happened acceptable.

 

Daniel I got plenty of stories I could share from trade shows, but will leave that alone. Being in the booth 2 years ago with Spring different times while I was IMTS I didn't witness such behavior or I would have never signed up with them. I have not witnessed anyone from Spring in the US treating anyone like idiots. I have seen that from other companies part of the reason I signed up with Spring over 2 years ago. Like it was mentioned earlier we all have our POV and some minds will or are not going to be changed. Hopefully we can crave out our little part and help customers bring what our group brings to the table. I personally like the product and everyone I have showed it to likes it also. It allows me to get work done faster and better. Time will tell where the relationship with Spring with takes 5th Axis. We press on and hopefully what we do best which is help our customers get the job done comes through.

[Mick]

Ron, can clarify for everyone here (or maybe just for me)?

 

When you say "signed with Spring", does that make you a) a customer, a reseller, c) A strategic partner d) non of the above or e) all of the above

 

Just askin'

[crazy^millman]

Ron, can clarify for everyone here (or maybe just for me)?

 

When you say "signed with Spring", does that make you a) a customer, a reseller, c) A strategic partner d) non of the above or e) all of the above

 

Just askin'

 

Not sure how I could be e?

 

I think you meat to make d your e and swap e d on your answers.     

 

c working on more.

 

Not going to ask others what relationships they have.

 

Just saying

[Colin Gilchrist]

I actually had a nice conversation with one of the Spring guys on LinkedIn over the last couple months. I think he is local in my region, and was actually really helpful in answering my questions, and pleasant to talk with. He didn't make me feel rushed, and was happy to answer questions.

 

After this thread was started, he contacted me again to follow up with me on my comments here, and he actually called out the guy that I had issues with by name. So there are people in the organization who care, and are aware that they need to take a look at their customer service.

 

So my hat's off to them, at least our feedback is reaching the right people. As I think many of us have seen with Mastercam; reaching the right people in the organization can make all the difference for how your issue is handled.

 

I actually think that bodes well for Spring. Like Daniel and Ron both, I'm always looking for new developments in technology, and I try to make sure that I'm on the leading edge of technology as the industry evolves.

 

I still use Mastercam, though not exclusively. Because of that, I still try and keep up on the developments that CNC Software is making to the software.

[Mick]

Not sure how I could be e?

 

I think you meat to make d your e and swap e d on your answers.     

 

c working on more.

 

Not going to ask others what relationships they have.

 

Just saying

 

No, I had A, B, C, D and E laid out correctly

 

As for what relationships I have, I'm an open book, but I in terms of CAM, and out of respect for the staff at Inhouse, and the Moderators on this forum, I don't mention anything other than I am a legitmate, licensed Mastercam user (the company I work for part of the time has Mastercam)

 

As for Verification and Simulation, well I am an authorised Vericut consultant. It means I am effectively a reseller, as well as a contractor. I make no secret about that. Of course, I am also an end user (I work for a company that has a license of Vericut) part of the time.

 

As Colin and Daniel have pointed out, it sure makes a difference if you find the right person to deal with in a company. Been there, done that, and made it through a couple of train wrecks.

[Watcher]

Since Colin mentioned he was contacted by a Spring U.S. guy, I think it´s worth to mention a few things here:

 

• The dinner episode occurred in a European trade show, no U.S. guys involved. But people sometimes don´t think about their actions and they jeopardize the name of their entire company because of their ph****** arrogance.

• Some time ago, I planned to write an article about verification, where VERICUT and NC-Simul would be the main subjects. If you know me you know I used to write decent articles, not marketing pieces. I never made a cent in CAMZone.

 

Well, because of my quality standard was very high, the article never came up. I did not mean to say anything untrue and even though I got some cooperation and answers from Silvere Proisy, Spring´s head in U.S., the answers I got were not enough and after some back and forth, I noticed I was bothering the man.

 

I also noticed that with the information I had the article would turn into a marketing piece and offer no differential against the fluffy articles they advert elsewhere. I was interested in the core technology behind both products, and even though I knew a bit about VERICUT´s, never went too far in regards Spring´s.

 

CGTech did not cooperate much as well, probably because being a customer, I knew everything they´re willing and not willing to share about their product - Including their ancient mechanism of graphical representation, which I think it´s a big problem they will have to tackle sooner or later.

 

Important to mention that none of the companies bad-mouthed each other during these inquiries. Not a single time.

 

Now let´s reflect about this:

 

• It takes years to build reputations, trust. Then you put some arrogant guys in your team and they do these kind of things in trade shows and dinners, thinking that there are no consequences. In today´s world, and specially in this small CAx world, everybody knows everybody, and these stories spread like Wildfire.

• Then a company like Spring setup an operation in U.S., invest money and wait patiently for the hard to close deals, and a dork that is 8.000Km away acts like a dork and jeopardizes the GLOBAL efforts of a company. And then people like Proisy and Ron have to come here and read such things about products they believe in. It´s unfair, but 'Dura lex sed lex'.

I have no doubt Ron that you´re after the best for your customers and find no surprise that you side with NC-Simul to meet their expectations. As I said, I LOVE that Spring is an obstacle in CGTech´s path and vice-versa. Competition is a healthy thing and the winners are us, customers.

 

The only things that are paramounts for me in this CAX world are:

• Your current solution is as good for you as you´re good on it. There´s no mine is better system. It depends on the jockey - Always.
• People, their experiences, their attitude, comes first. This one is measurable by the quality of your first meet and the post sales support you get.
• I don´t care about brands, but in what they can do for me and the companies I work for. If I realize that a tool is no longer the best option for my company, you bet I´ll try to move on. No loyalty or anything like that. Unless I get a perpetual pass on paying maintenance and technical support.
• If someone tells me that they don´t want my maintenance check because they want me quiet, then I think there´s no way for me and my company with them. Good people doing good work needs to be paid. Well paid.

[Mick]

 

Since Colin mentioned he was contacted by a Spring U.S. guy, I think it´s worth to mention a few things here:

 

• The dinner episode occurred in a European trade show, no U.S. guys involved. But people sometimes don´t think about their actions and they jeopardize the name of their entire company because of their ph****** arrogance.

• Some time ago, I planned to write an article about verification, where VERICUT and NC-Simul would be the main subjects. If you know me you know I used to write decent articles, not marketing pieces. I never made a cent in CAMZone.

 

Well, because of my quality standard was very high, the article never came up. I did not mean to say anything untrue and even though I got some cooperation and answers from Silvere Proisy, Spring´s head in U.S., the answers I got were not enough and after some back and forth, I noticed I was bothering the man.

 

I also noticed that with the information I had the article would turn into a marketing piece and offer no differential against the fluffy articles they advert elsewhere. I was interested in the core technology behind both products, and even though I knew a bit about VERICUT´s, never went too far in regards Spring´s.

 

CGTech did not cooperate much as well, probably because being a customer, I knew everything they´re willing and not willing to share about their product - Including their ancient mechanism of graphical representation, which I think it´s a big problem they will have to tackle sooner or later.

 

Important to mention that none of the companies bad-mouthed each other during these inquiries. Not a single time.

 

Now let´s reflect about this:

 

• It takes years to build reputations, trust. Then you put some arrogant guys in your team and they do these kind of things in trade shows and dinners, thinking that there are no consequences. In today´s world, and specially in this small CAx world, everybody knows everybody, and these stories spread like Wildfire.

• Then a company like Spring setup an operation in U.S., invest money and wait patiently for the hard to close deals, and a dork that is 8.000Km away acts like a dork and jeopardizes the GLOBAL efforts of a company. And then people like Proisy and Ron have to come here and read such things about products they believe in. It´s unfair, but 'Dura lex sed lex'.

I have no doubt Ron that you´re after the best for your customers and find no surprise that you side with NC-Simul to meet their expectations. As I said, I LOVE that Spring is an obstacle in CGTEch´s path and vice-versa. Competition is a healthy thing and the winners are us, customers.

 

The only things that are paramounts for me in this CAX world are:

• Your current solution is as good for you as you´re good on it. There´s no mine is better system. It depends on the jockey - Always.
• People, their experiences, their attitude, comes first. This one is measurable by the quality of your first meet and the post sales support you get.
• I don´t care about brands, but what they can do for me and the companies I work for. If I realize that a tool is no longer the best option for my company, you bet I´ll try to move on. No loyalty or anything like that. Unless I get a perpetual pass on paying maintenance and technical support.
• If someone tells me that they don´t want my maintenance check because they want me quiet, then I think there´s no way for me and my company with them. Good people doing good work needs to be paid. Well paid.

 

 

Well written Daniel. And I sure miss your CAMZone blogs. Always an enjoyable read, and hard hitting, but on target