Larry, Just thought that I'd drop in with a little "relevant" information for you. I say relevant because we have the EXACT machine as you and cut the EXACT Materials. Our VF8 is a 1997 model and has been eating steel since the day it was born - so we know a little about making this machine cut. I will start by saying that it IS a different animal because of its size. I will start by saying that since you own one of these things, you obviously know one of the limitations of the VF8 - in one word -SPINDLE OVERHANG! Yep, these guys on here will give you info on what they have seen, and that is good, but there is a HUGE difference between a small C frame machine (IE. HAAS VF1,2,3,4, Fadal 2016,4020,etc) which have less than 20" of spindle overhang and a machine like ours which has 40" of spindle overhang (from the column to the tool centerline) - Big rigidity problem, but it can be overcome. How do you make it cut you say? There are many keys to it. Number 1. Pick a tool manufacturer - we use Ingersoll and Iscar High Positive Tools and they will rip! I'm not real sure where Andrew gets that the ingersoll tool reps are useless. Maybe he has a bad ingersoll rep, but their applications guys are the envy of the tool manufacturers who compete for automotive OE work around here. That is why Iscar bought them - for their App guys and their specials capability. Ingersoll's inserts have been made by Iscar for a while now anyway, so no quality compromises were made when they got bought out. Number 2. Get the absolute shortest cat40 toolholder you can find - all CAT40 Holders are not created equal. This makes a HUGE difference in all machining - but especially when you are eaking out all you can from a machine like ours that doesn't ooze rigidity. Stub that sucker up at all costs and you will benefit. Fitz Rite makes the shortest projection 3/4" shank Weldon CAT40 holder on the market. It is super short compared to Command's, Lyndex's, or ETM's. The tool shank actually projects clear up by the tool knob inside the holders taper. This, in turn, will force you into using a 3/4" shank cutter. This isn't too bad because you can get an Ingersoll 1" diameter, 3/4" shank high *** tool with 3 inserts, .4 max DOC, and 1.5" projection from holder. Load it with 847 grade inserts and you are ready to mill stainless. There is one tool out there that will outfeed this tool and its Iscar's Mill2000, but you can only get the 1"diameter, 3 flute with a 1" shank which forces you into a longer projection toolholder which negates the feed gains you get from the tool. This particular insert is stronger than Ingersolls design and lends itself to higher feed per tooth, but our machines don't really have the ponies to take advantage of it. Both of these tools (Ingersoll and Iscar)WILL smoke a Coro390 from Sandvik in like material on like machines - been there, done that, and have video to prove it. In the Coro's defense, it does have better mismatch control on multiple depth passes than the two I's tools. Nubmer 3. Take advantage of Radial chip thinning like Andrew said - it WILL boost your programmed table feed on contour cuts. It isn't rocket science and everyone should be doing it anyway. The key to RCT is to remember that unless you are contouring with atleast half of the cutter diameter (thereby attaining the programmed feed per tooth at tool centerline), you aren't getting the feed per tooth that you think you are. Adjusting feed for RCT will give you more scientific results because you actually know what chip thickness you are getting. Number 4. Don't run coolant on these inserts! You NEED the heat in the chips for everything to work right. Use high pressure air to clear your cut and stabilize the cutting enviro temperature. This is key! You don't want heat in your part after your cut. If you have it, slow your SurafceFeetMin or boost your FeedPerTooth to get the heat in the chip and out of the part. Chips should be a perfect nubmer 9 with smooth edges. If you have jagged edges on the leading edge of your number 9 chip you are going to start the chatter battle which can be a long one. Number 5. Make your setup as rigid as possible. If you are holding in a vise, put it in the jaws as deep as you can. If you are holding with clamps, put another one on. Do Not overlook this step! You want the absolute shortest distance possible between the spindle face and the bottom of your cut (derived by toolholder, tool combination) and similarly, you want the absolute shortest distance between the bottom of your cut and your holding device (derived by your workholding system being used. Nubmer 6. Play with it and learn something in the process. Get a hold of an Ingersoll rep and tell him that you are looking at his tools for a particular job. I haven't run across one yet who wouldn't come in a prove it out with no cost to you for blown cutters. You will have to play with Depth of Cut, RPM's, and Feedrate to get the results you desire. But you WILL get to atleast 60ipm in stainless at around a .1875" to .200" DOC with this machine and these tools. Sorry so long, but I had some time, so I thought I'd give a little tooling basics 101 for future searches. Alot of people overlook the most critical part of all cutting operations and then wonder why somebody else is making money and they aren't. Brett

Actually, that particular program was relatively short ~50,000 lines or so. It only did the 5Ax motion and was for a small part that was to be a sample for one of our customers. They do get big though because most of the times are pieces are much bigger. The program we have running on that machine right now is 1,101,276 lines long - about 60meg. No DNC on this stuff, it chews code in a hurry. With the Hermle's Heidi TNC430 control and 100base network connection, you can efficiently run very large files. The control has 2gig of onboard storage with infinate midprogram startup - very nice for what we do. The program we are running now is a pretty typical one for us containing 3Axis stock prep, 2Ax waterline roughing, 3Axis semi-finishing and final finishing, and then the 4&5 Axis code for the final corner setting. Rubber companies will buy no internal radiused corners, everything must be square and sharp -which dictates multiaxis work. I will admit though, we use NCL for most of the 5Axis parametric code, but for simple swarfing and cleanup, Mastercam works pretty well. Those pieces lose alot of weight in the process. From one fixturing it goes from 400lbs to around 115lbs on average. I think this board is way cool because you get to see what everybody else is machining and how they are doing it. It gives you a little perspective on how tough the machining industry is and it's reassuring to know the good ol' USA can still pump out some of the tough stuff. Keep the chips flyin' Brett Price

I am uploading a zip file to cadcams FTP site in the All pictures folder that contains two mpeg's right now. It is named Hermle.zip. One video is an up close tool shot, the other is a wider angle showing the machine movements from the same program. They are from our Hermle C800U about a month ago when we were finally getting around to setting up our post in Mcam. The part is a section of a tire mold cut from steel and it shows 5 Axis swarf cutting pretty clearly. The tool transitions nearly 75 degrees from vertical to stay normal to the surface at all times. This type of cutting creates all kind of ulcers, but it's fun and it's all we do. Sorry it's such a big file, but it is very good quality video and quite cool IMHO. It's hard to find good 5-axis video on the web. We've got lots more stuff recorded, but this is one of the few files that doesn't have the coolant on and spraying everywhere. Hope this is something like you are looking for. Let me know if you would like to see more. *It's going to take a while to show up on the FTP site because it's taking quite a while to upload* Brett Price Athens Mold & Machine, Inc.

Have you tried running the hdd32.exe file in your mcam8commom folder? It is the Hasp setup utility that loads the drivers for your port. I had this same problem when I converted over to my new system running Win2k last friday. After running the hdd32.exe file, my HASP was still not found, so I called Mcam tech support and they mailed me a new driver that fixed my problem. I just mailed it to you and you should have it by the time you read this. Good Luck - hope it helps! Brett Price

Greg, It depends on what you are going to be using it for. If you want THE toolpathing king in Multiaxis - one system and one system only is for you, NCCS's NCL. NCL is built for the big boys by the big boys and is used heavily in the aerospace industry. It was THE competition for CAMAX when Camax was in it's hayday. Now that CAMAX is essentially gone, NCL is pretty much the king when it comes to comlex cutting. Problem 1 though is that NCL resembles Mcam in no way shape or form. It is a language based programming system, but it is ultra powerful and gives you infinate discreet tool control over every aspect of the tool motion. It's parametric capabilities are also very nice for family of parts programming. NCL is what we ended up going with when Mastercam ran out of gas on our parts. For what we do, our MCAM dealer and MCAM themselves said, oh, you want to do WHAT? But, I will add that we still use MCAM for 75% of all our work and nearly all of our 2,2.5, and 3 axis code though because it is so easy to use and learn and I love it for making my job so much easier. But, and this is a big but, IF you are going to specifically do hardcore MultiAxis work on a consistent basis, Mastercam IS NOT your best choice, and I beg someone to argue. You do not have enough flexibility in the tool axis control commands. NCL not only has multiple check surface capability in Multiaxis cutting mode, but it also has nearly 20 variations of multiaxis tool axis control and a host of other top notch features like custom cutter support in multiaxis such as barrel and taper cutters. NCL is only limited by the users imagination in what they can do. NCL does have it's downfalls though. A huge learning curve, limited design capabilities, no solid modeling capabilities, and big price tag combine to make it targeted at a very specific target market. I will go on to say that Mastercam is my number 1 choice for most of my work. I prep the stock, rough, and semi-finish with MCAM before I apply the finish motion in NCL. If it has to be done fast and is not in the upper 5% of difficulty, then MCAM is a great choice for all of your machining. Pair it with a capable design package like James mentioned above and you have a flexible system that is hard to beat. Sorry so long, I always have alot to say. Brett

I will agree that Fadals are not your surface machine of choice. I too speak from experience, having 6 of them rangine from VMC15's to 6030's in our company. 100's of ipm on a fadal is almost laughable, unless the surface you are cutting is also a flat face (ie - straight line!)in which case, I hardly call it "surface machining". Mark, have you ever checked your servo cycle time on that control? Run the numbers and you will see that you cannot hold any tight tolerance on that machine while doing true high speed multisurface cutting. Surface machine of choice? For me, it's my new toy - A Hermle C800U. This thing is a rock, literally, the whole machine is one giant chunk of mineral particulate - no cast iron assemblies here. The Siemens digital drives, heidi glass scales, and Heidenhain TNC430 (very good servo cycle times), and 2 Gig of onboard program storage work very well for high speed surface machining. It is specific built for high speed machining of hard materials and it does very well. The HSK spindle is a thing of beauty, it cuts like you wouldn't believe. But, I am not nieve enough to think that this is the best machine out there, and I won't get on my soapbox to preach that everyone should have one. Many people don't know what a good machine is, because to them it is whatever the best machine they have in their shop is. If you were used to using old Cinci's or Hurcos and then bought a shiny new fadal, guess what? That Fadal is the best machine on earth to you and probably the next best thing to sliced bread. There is nothing wrong with this, but also take note that there others out there who have truly been "machine shopping" and seen all of what is offered. It's incredible what you can buy to help you do your job nowaday's. Different applications require much different equipment and the worst thing to do is buy overkill. The key to a succesful business is to find a good Price Vs. Performance ratio for what you are trying to accomplish. Why buy a 30hp, glass scale, linear motor, HSK spindle, surfacing machine when you are drilling holes and cutting 2d contours, or even cutting simple single surfaces? Everyone in our line of work wants to run the trickest machine out there, but in reality if it isn't necessary, why waste your companies money? Find a reputable distributor that you are comfortable dealing with, put their applications engineers through their paces and run some of YOUR parts to truly get a feel for what you are buying. Just my 2 cents, although I probably got up to a dollar on that one. Happy cutting everyone - keep it up, we are a dying breed!

Just for everyones info, BSA is not helpless. Just last week, they busted one of our competitors in Akron, Ohio. http://www.geocities.com/price7227/northeast.jpg It cost that company $52,000 for illegal versions of Autocad and Mastercam. That is WAY more than if they would have just bought them outright and a pretty big hit to this months profits (they are almost non-existent today anyway!) BSA does have a VERY big task, but they do not have to catch everyone. Fear is the key here. You can bet your paycheck that every successful company within a certain niche industry watches it's competitors very closely, therefore, headlines like this spread around like wildfire. The day this hit the papers, my boss was in here asking if we had any "illegal" software. Of course we didn't, but it sure had him worried - 52 grand is not a slap on the wrist in todays economy. Often times upper management has no idea that the illegal software is being used, sometimes they do. If they do know about it, the company is dirt in my opinion, but my opinion is not worth much, because they are all still in business. But if BSA can bust one person in every specific niche industry, news will travel. I bet alot of the pirated software will disappear on it's own due to the fact that it will be known that "someone is watching". Anyway, just thought I would add a little bit of current interesting news to this thread. See-ya!

Thanks Reece! That looks good, I guess I never really thought of driving surface edge curves with the tooltip on the floor in this case. I got stuck thinking in the swarfing mindset because we almost always have a drafted rib on our models, so I usually just swarf it killing two birds with one stone. The way you did it will work great on this because the rib is perp to the floor surface on this model. It is great to have someone else's take on things, its tons of help! Sometimes all is it takes is a different perspective and the problem goes away. And yes, this pass is a finish pass only, just to "clean out" the rib/floor intersections. There is very little stock that it has to pull on this cut. Also, do you have any idea what would make the tool do what it was doing with the swarf pass on operation 1? Just curious if it might be the way the UV's of the surface are running or something because it was a customer supplied model and sometimes they are a little screwy Thanks again and have a great weekend! Brett

Alright guys, if you know anything about MultiAxis swarfing please help! I am having trouble getting a certain section of a model to toolpath correctly using 5Axis swarfing. I have uploaded the MC8, NCI, and posted NC file for the model so you can see what I am talking about (In the MC8Files folder, Athens5Axprob.zip file) On operation 1, I need the tooltop to stay in contact with and as normal as possible to the purple floor surface while tilting to come tangent the green wall surface. If you look at the toolpath from the front view while it backplots, you can see that it does not stay normal with the floor at all and is causing a problem because I need it to swarf up the side and set the intersection between the purple floor and the green wall with the .020 bull nose (requiring tangency to the wall while staying as normal to the floor as possible) We usually don't have problems doing this, as shown in Operation 2, it works fine, but this model won't drive quite right up the one particular rib. Is there a tool axis control command that I am missing? Or is there something screwy going on with the surface causing the incorrect motion? I don't see any commands to modify how the tool tip interacts with the floor surface at all. Our NCL software has infinate control over this, but we need it to work in Mcam also. The posted file works fine at the machine (Hermle C800U With Heidi TNC430), but doesn't give us the desired result on that one particular rib. Please help if you have any suggestions at all. Mail me if something isn't quite clear or I'm not making sense - thanks in advance! BTW - the model is a section of a tire mold if you were wondering. Thanks Again, Brett Price

cadcam.... The Daewoo DMV500S Diamond Series was going to run around 100,000. This got you a 40x20 machine, a true 30Hp spindle (28hp continuous duty), box ways, true chilled spindle, 30tool side mount ATC with 1.5 sec change time (4 sec chip to chip), 1000ipm rapids on box ways, thru spindle coolant, conveyors, lighting, Fanuc 18i series control, remote jog, full surface machining cpabilities without RS-232 by way of PCMCIA flash memory cards, and LOTS of cutting capabilities. A comparable size HAAS (which there really isn't one) would be pretty close to the DMV's price. A base model VF3B (40x20 machine, with 20hp geared head and 20tool atc) is going to run 65,000 and then if you upgrade the tool changer, get the high torque spindle option, add a conveyor, max out the RAM in the controller, add the ethernet option, thru spindle coolant, remote job, lighting, get the high speed machining option, macro capability, wired for 4th axis and a few other options, you are getting to within 15,000 of the Daewoo. This VF3 HAAS machine won't hold a candle to the Daewoo though. It is the same size travels with 40 taper, but all comparisons end there. The ballscrews are smaller, it's riding on linear ways (not necessarily bad), has slower rapid rates, and has nowhere near the rigidity. And the big difference - POWER! It will advertise that is has 20hp vector drive, but guess what? Pull the covers and that motor is a 10hp continuous duty! Run it through a geared head, use the wye-delta switching, and you "may" get 20hp for five minutes, but that's it (and I don't even think that is true based on actual tests) The daewoo is a true 28hp continuous duty (much like the Makino's, Mori's, etc..) and there is a marked difference when you see these machines cut. The only other option you have if you are intent on getting a HAAS is to step up to their VF5 50taper 30hp. This gives you bigger screws, added rigidity of 50taper, 30 tool ATC, and some other stuff, but it's base price is 105,000 - right where the daewoo is. That Haas price doesn't give you any of your needed options which will sky-rocket its price in a hurry - especially if you need high rpm's out of that 50 taper head (BIG money) The base 50 taper max RPM is 5,000 rpm - hardly enough to do any sort of finish operations. You would also have to get the high speed machining option, ethernet, max out your ram, etc....... you would have lots of money in it. The VF5 would give you a little more travel, but if you look at total machine weight between the VF5 50 taper and the daewoo, you will see the daewoo still has the upper hand in bulk which leads to a lots more stable cutting platform. I am not bashing the HAAS's though, like I said we own them and like them for the value and what we do with them. They are a versatile machine that can do many things for a shop, but if you are going to set your sights on making money by throwing serious chips in serious material, we looked elsewhere. Test cuts and your dealer are the key - they may make a liar out of everything I just said, but I doubt it - been there, done that. [This message has been edited by tirenut (edited 07-25-2001).]

VMC's - so many choices, so few truly good machines. We have Fadal's, HAAS, Hermle, Sharnoa, Cinci's, and Hurco's and they are all good in certain ways. It really is going to depend on what you want to cut on them and how good your dealer/distributor is. Our HAAS machines have been great value for the money. They have been running for three years non-stop with little maintenance. They are not all that great for roughing steel, although they will do an adequate job. Just take their HP ratings with a grain of salt. You can stall their spindle and then do the numbers and you are nowhere near the 20 or 30 HP number - we know, we cut steel with ours everyday. Service is A1 - now with the HFO's you get great response and great parts availability - no complaints here. The control is also the most operator friendly of any I've seen. Fadals are also respectable, but from our experience, I would rather have a HAAS. Our Fadals just can't take the cut in steel. It should, but it just won't. Service is also good on these machines, but alot depends on your dealer. The next machine we plan to buy is a DAEWOO - I know, I know, a what? Trust me, take the time to look at these things if you are serious about cutting steel. They are monsters when it comes to cutting. We ran a demo on a Diamond Series 500 and it flat smokes our HAAS or Fadal. True 30 Hp spindles, and you can check it through cutting. The same cut that will stall our HAAS was done with ease on the Daewoo and it had plenty of headroom to spare. It is quick (1000 ipm rapids on boxways) has a chilled spindle (one up on HAAS here) and is a true production machine. It is a VERY beefy all Meehanite casting (comparable to a Mazak) and damps your cuts well. It dwarfs a comparable size Fadal or Haas. It has a side mount 30 tool changer that blows HAAS's or Fadals away. You also get a Fanuc 18i series control which is a plus to me, since there are lots of operators that are familiar with the "fanuc" way of doing things. The machine is good for surfacing, if that is what you are into. Instead of an ethernet option on the HAAS or upgraded memory options, you can buy inexpensive flash memeory cards that plug right into the PCMCIA slot on the fanuc that give you massive on board storage capabilities - a major plus to us since we have 40 meg files. The price is also very attractive. It's a little more expensive than the HAAS or Fadal base prices, but you will find that once you option out either one of those machine with memory options, ethernet, spindle options, thru spindle coolant, conveyors, high speed machine options, remote jog handle, etc... the prices aren't all that different and it is more than made up by the performance difference. Longevity and reliability issues are the only question marks we have, but Daewoo's lathes are a the top of their game, so we'll see. All distributors will give you a demo and cut your parts with your programs and your tools if you ask them. That is really the best way to test everything and get a true "feel" for the machine. This is only my opinion, and I gurantee everyone has a different one on this subject. There is little info out there on VMC's but like I said, your dealer is going to make 60% of your decision for you. Just my 2 cents. Fire away! ------------------ [This message has been edited by tirenut (edited 07-25-2001).]

I'm 26. Been machining since I was about 10 years old in my dads shop, graduated up to playing with CNC's at about 17. I began using Mastercam since ver5.0 in 1993, been using it everyday for my real job since 1996. Use it to program everything. Hitachi Wire EDM, Vertical Turning Lathes - 2 Axis, Haas's, Fadal's, Sharnoa's, Cincinatti's - 3 Axis, Sunstrand OminMill's - 4 Axis, and now, a Hermle C800U for 5-axis.

Hi everyone, been lurking this forum for a while now, never really have time to contribute much. New resolution - Start Contributing! I'm 26 years old and work for a independant machine shop that manufactures tire molds for the rubber industry. Our customers include all the "biggies" Goodyear, Bridgestone/Firestone, Cooper, Pirelli, Continental/General, etc..... We use 2.5,3,4, and 5 axis milling to machine the various parts of the mold assemblies. We just purchased a Hermle C800U for our simultaneous 5Axis work and are using NCCS's NCL software for that - Not MCAM - needed more "power". I still love my Mastercam for 85% of what I do. I first began using Mcam Ver5.0 while attending Ohio University in 1993. I started interning where I currently work in 1994 running a Sunstrand OmniMill 5Axis machine putting lettering in the sidewalls of the tiremolds in the summer. When I graduated from OU in 1997, I continued working full-time and chose MCAM as my lifeblood. Been using it everyday for almost five years now and we've made some interesting stuff with it. Glad to be a part of the forum!