Production metal printers, tolerance capability?

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

I'm looking at something like this:

https://xactmetal.com/affordable-metal-3d-printing-xm200c/

or this:

https://www.farsoon-gl.com/products/fs121m/

for production of small, Ti6Al4V-ELI medical device parts.  What tolerances can be expected once a process is fully dialed in?  I figure if it can just be consistent and repeatable, the input model can be tweaked to adjust feature dimensions.

I'm also wondering about support removal, and how labor intensive it has to be.

Thanks

 

[JParis]

18 hours ago, Matthew Hajicek - Singularity said:

I'm looking at something like this:

https://xactmetal.com/affordable-metal-3d-printing-xm200c/

or this:

https://www.farsoon-gl.com/products/fs121m/

for production of small, Ti6Al4V-ELI medical device parts.  What tolerances can be expected once a process is fully dialed in?  I figure if it can just be consistent and repeatable, the input model can be tweaked to adjust feature dimensions.

I'm also wondering about support removal, and how labor intensive it has to be.

Thanks

 

I'll point this out on the xm200c, the spec sheet doesn't list Ti6Al4V

• Stainless Steel: 316L, 17-4 PH, 15-5, 400 Series

• Super Alloys: 718, 625, Cobalt Chrome F75

• Tooling Steels: Maraging M300

and the other link won't come up for me...

But...a couple of things when processing Ti6Al4V.....post processing the material after printing it is really necessary....for us this means every batch we print goes to stress relieve on the plate that the parts are printed on....

Then when they come back they go through the Hiping process...

The support material removal can be a bit of work. You will want to look for orientations that require a minimal of support material, yet is still reliable enough to print.

Any tolerance that you can hold is ultimately controlled in a big way by the layer size a machine can print. We can easily hold ±.005" which for our process is acceptable as all tight features are machined after post processing.  Tapped holes and such.

 

 

[JParis]

with a .03 micron layer, we hold much tight tolerances and finish requirements.

We've not had the chance to see how good as the parts we do use this printer to manufacture do not require it.

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

5 hours ago, JParis said:

I'll point this out on the xm200c, the spec sheet doesn't list Ti6Al4V

Their tech says they can do 6/4-ELI.  The tech also got back tome on tolerance, and claims .002".  The parts do have a broad, flat, bottom, to which the support could be attached and wired off.  The mechanical stresses on these parts are very low (the material choice is for biocompat and marketability), so I'm hoping stress relieving could be skipped.

[JParis]

Just now, Matthew Hajicek - Singularity said:

The parts do have a broad, flat, bottom, to which the support could be attached and wired off. 

One of the hardest things to print, especially with a hightemp alloy...

You will definitely NOT want to print that parallel to the printing platen....it WILL curl and have a TON of stress in it. You will want to use angles to tilt and roll..

A flat highstress area, your support structure should be VERY attached to the platen, as it cools, if it is not, it will curl away.

He claims .002".....mind you it is possible on some machines but is he saying ±.002 or ±.001...that may have a difference in your ultimate desire

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

2 hours ago, JParis said:

One of the hardest things to print, especially with a hightemp alloy...

When I say "broad", I mean relatively speaking. The flat bottom is about .250" x .800", with a .021" thick floor.  We're also looking at hybrid machines, or moving the build plate to a mill after printing, so tight features can be skimmed.  Not all brands of printer have 6/4-ELI powder available though.

[JParis]

12 hours ago, Matthew Hajicek - Singularity said:

The flat bottom is about .250" x .800", with a .021" thick floor. 

That's plenty large enough to start to curl......and with a floor that thin, post processing will be a forgone conclusion....just a guesstimate but I would think that'll require about a 30 to 40° tilt,,,that's about where I would start.

We have never found anyone will certify the tensile strength of printed Ti UNLESS it's post processed.

[#Rekd™]

Without any actual experience with any of these machines.... how stable are the parts when being machined after they are "printed" (warping etc)?

 

[JParis]

31 minutes ago, #Rekd™ said:

Without any actual experience with any of these machines.... how stable are the parts when being machined after they are "printed" (warping etc)?

 

Like anything else in manufacturing, much depends on the parts and the set up....we print the parts we do out of Ti because in the use, they are thermally stable.

Your part shape, settings and support structure matter greatly....I have had to learn on the fly over the past year. High temp alloys just by virtue of the printing process, heating & cooling, usually have a fair bit of stress.....one part we made had a feature that had to be printed at a 5 deg tilt to the desired final product. As these were not post processed(stress relief), when we cut them off the plate, this feature would move 5 degrees. The movement was consistent enough that the ±1/4° was able to be held.

Many factors and also trial & error

[#Rekd™]

13 minutes ago, JParis said:

Many factors and also trial & error

I assume as the technology advances further a lot of these things will get sorted out (be more well known and how to design around them). 

[JParis]

5 minutes ago, #Rekd™ said:

I assume as the technology advances further a lot of these things will get sorted out (be more well known and how to design around them). 

Perhaps...we're supposed to be looking at some updated EOS software that address some of these factors and can predict what orientation to place the part for minimal support structure....if I've learned nothing over this past year, it is that support structure matters greatly...it helps not only support areas that require it as they build, it also facilitates heat transfer out of the parts. So the notion of minimal structure is nice in thinking and on a screen, it would also be nice to save some Ti powder but how it works in the real world, on real parts, will tell the story.

[JParis]

@Matthew Hajicek - Singularity

I had this issue dropped on my desk and considering the use you have in mind, I thought this may be of interest to you

https://www.additivemanufacturing.media/articles/dmg-mori-build-plate-pucks-cut-postprocessing-time-by-80

 

[Aaron Eberhard]

5 hours ago, JParis said:

@Matthew Hajicek - Singularity

I had this issue dropped on my desk and considering the use you have in mind, I thought this may be of interest to you

https://www.additivemanufacturing.media/articles/dmg-mori-build-plate-pucks-cut-postprocessing-time-by-80

 

That's nifty.   Someone had their thinking cap on that day.

[Johnward Holmeson]

6 hours ago, JParis said:

@Matthew Hajicek - Singularity

I had this issue dropped on my desk and considering the use you have in mind, I thought this may be of interest to you

https://www.additivemanufacturing.media/articles/dmg-mori-build-plate-pucks-cut-postprocessing-time-by-80

 

That's pretty damn clever

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

6 hours ago, JParis said:

@Matthew Hajicek - Singularity

I had this issue dropped on my desk and considering the use you have in mind, I thought this may be of interest to you

https://www.additivemanufacturing.media/articles/dmg-mori-build-plate-pucks-cut-postprocessing-time-by-80

 

That does look neat.  I'm starting to think though, that a bar-fed mill-turn would be a more stable, reliable, lower labor solution, without any accuracy problems.  Willemin-Macodel has some good looking ones.

[JParis]

17 hours ago, Matthew Hajicek - Singularity said:

That does look neat.  I'm starting to think though, that a bar-fed mill-turn would be a more stable, reliable, lower labor solution, without any accuracy problems.  Willemin-Macodel has some good looking ones.

If it can be done cheaper using subtractive machining, that is probably the best way to go.

Additive manufacturing has its place. It is not however cheap to get into and its best application is on parts that are otherwise difficult to manufacture. Ti powder to continue printing is $10k per 30kg

I can state unequivocally that parts we print could not be manufactured utilizing subtractive methods. Even if it "could" somehow, it would be cost prohibitive.  

[cncappsjames]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:07 AM, #Rekd™ said:

I assume as the technology advances further a lot of these things will get sorted out (be more well known and how to design around them). 

Just because technology changes and improves, doesn't mean it won't still take a skilled person to make decisions and drive software. Because (as JP alluded to) a few degrees this way or that way will make the difference between success and failure... and that's NEVER gonna change. Software WILL get better, but it's never going to be click and print for everything. Just like it's NEVER going to be magic button programming for all subtractive processes.

 

[cncappsjames]

Worked on a project for a bit with a customer before I had to hand it off to The Professionals in this arena on one of these;

https://www.lumex-matsuura.com/english/lumex-avance-60

Part Samples;

https://www.lumex-matsuura.com/english/samplework

Additive and subtractive in the same machine. Matsuura did it before all the MeToo's came a long.