Education -vs- Experience

[JAMMAN]

This topic is debated almost daily in our shop.I have little if any formal school or training of any kind. I have in the past worked for 4 year degree mechanical engineers that required most of their parts re-designed before they could be machined, usually by me.

I've worked beside journeyman die makers that I wouldn't let change my oil. Then I have worked with a couple schooled die designers that came up with concepts that were far beyond anything I could imagine. It seems to be what the person gets out of it and not as much the school or experience it's self.

"How do you turn a grinder hand into a die maker? Take away half his tools and give him more money."

Jim

[Charles Davis]

I think that machining is a skill that requires a certain amount of natural talent; like being a good mechanic, or a musician.

No amount of education can make a 1st rate machinist our of some who lacks basic talent.

At the same time, education should not be dismissed.

In my opinion, a good basic education (basic math, reading, physics (if possible), and communication are cornerstone skills.

That with good aptitude, good ethics, a desire to apply yourself and continually learn, and a non-abrasive personality will take you far.

[limitless creativity]

I agree with Charles:

quote:

---

---

In my opinion, a good basic education (basic math, reading, physics (if possible), and communication are cornerstone skills.

That with good aptitude, good ethics, a desire to apply yourself and continually learn, and a non-abrasive personality will take you far.

This goes with any job that a person should have to continue growth personally and professionally.

Mike P.

[Scott Bond]

Hi

"How do you turn a grinder hand into a die maker? Take away half his tools and give him more money."

Jim

I told my boss once ::::

"If had half of your ego, and you could get half of my God given talent to make these parts, we would make a great team"

---------------Hardway---------------

[Michael Reynolds]

Ok, I've got to chime in on this one. There really is alot of THEORY in the machining business that you probably DON'T get by practical experience. From simple things like how to come up with speeds and feeds, cutting tool geometries, properties of metals, how to PROPERLY select a grinding wheel, threading formulas, selecting the PROPER coolant, etc., etc., etc.

These things are just as important as the "basic" math (which isn't very basic), communications skills, etc. I've been a toolmaker for 18 years, and have taught it for 5, and I can tell you that I've worked with some very good machinists/toolmakers who would have been lightyears better had they known the theory behind what they were doing.

So don't discount a good technical college machining education AT ALL. These students have the technical knowledge, they just need some experience. I've seen that after they get the experience, they quickly surpass seasoned machinist.

I hope I didn't tick anyone off here, just sayin' what I've seen. I've also seen that people who don't HAVE a degree don't VALUE a degree. We're not all educated idiots.

Thanks fer listening

Mike R.

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Michael Reynolds ]

[JAMMAN]

No offense taken, Michael. That's what I was looking for, real opinions from real people.

One thing you must understand though is the theory that was taught was developed by people who experienced things they didn't understand then figured them out using basic math and some trig and allot of trial. I plan on taking a Mastercam class next spring after using it since 3.1 so obviously I don't think school is a bad thing, I'm just saying along the way I have met many very productive near genius thinkers with no education.

Jim

[Michael Reynolds]

I agree. I came up from the floor BEFORE I went to college to be a teacher. By researching what I thought I should be teaching, I learned ALOT that I wish I knew WHEN I WAS a toolmaker. On the other hand, I USED alot of what I learned on the floor to come up with WHAT I should be teaching. It works both ways. Ya gotta use both practical knowledge ALONG with down n dirty theory.

Thanks fer listnen,

Mike R.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Being who I am(young and often outspoken) and doing what I do (Programming AND Teaching part time) has brought me to one conclusion, Experience AND Education are equally important. You can't be successful without either. Notice I did not say "formal" education. If people go into this trade from a University thinking "Nobody can teach me anything, I have a degree", they'll surely fail miserably in the real world. Theory has it's place but so does practical experience. Now, if a "self-taught" metal worker has the opinion the "Nobody can teach me anything, I have X number of years experience" they will fail equally. If we stop moving forward, you're going backward. It's that simple.

JMHO

[Trevor Bailey]

I would recommend to anyone that wants to be a machinist, get a job in the "trenches" first and then go to school. That individual would learn twice as much as the next guy/girl and would not come back to the shop with an attitude. I have seen guys come straight from a "schooling" background and want to drive a 3/8 4 flute EM .750 deep in stainless at 5000 SpinSpeed & 40 IPM because his forumal from school said it would work. Do not get me wrong, I was a part of the best machining/CAD/CAM school there ever was with Charles Davis. There are some really bright people out there that have never even seen a machine before that could be taught BASIC fundamentals to get them going.

In my opinion, being a machinist takes great appititude in many apects of the trade. You need skills like math & common knowledge & tooling info & common knowledge & so forth. Basically, you need to have the want to learn something new everyday and a good ear to know when to listen to someone telling you valuable information that comes from many years experience. Schools are great - Once you decide what you want to do for the first time.

People that have been on the shop floor already & they want to better themselves with outside training or classes at a tech school, my question to you is "What are you waiting for?". There's no supplement for knowledge in any trade. For employeers everywhere, there is nothing like having a skilled employee SKILLED.

Machining is not for everyone. Especially for the ones straight out of college. I have met guys before with "educations" that did not know the difference between what a drill & a reamer looked like or even knew how to pick up an edge of a part. One guy asked me why the software did not do that for you!!!!

Trevor

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Trevor ]

[kathy]

IHO, learning something everyday whether through formal education or experience is important!

Formal education in math and the sciences (Calculus, Physics etc.) prepares one's mind to become analytical, expanding the ability to see different viewpoints. I know, I know – “what does that have to do with machining??” “This isn’t an Engineer’s forum…. “

I just feel that anything that can do to expand your horizons is good. So go take that Trig class – you would be surprised at how much you can expand. On the other hand, for you experienced guys – go help teach that Machining Class at the local JC!

Its interesting to note also, at McDonell Douglas, all the incoming Engineers (MIT grads included) were required to spend at least 6 months ‘on the boards’ drafting. Than they had to design their first project, and go out on the floor and build it!

Kathy

PS: I’m on ‘Vacation’ this week – I’m down in Irvine taking Vericut training! An excellent software, and I recommend it highly! I’ll be back in the trenches Thursday!