Buy New or Used CNC

[Bob_Looney]

I am looking to buy another cnc. I need at least a pallet setup. To make it simple I could buy a new haas type cnc with a pallet for less than 100k or a 5 year old Mori sv500 apc for about the same money. Horizontals don't have the travel I need till I get to the 500mm size and used ones are in the mid 100's.

I am looking for your thoughts on wether you would buy a used Mori over a new Hass. I know lots of you like both machines so I thought I would ask here.

 

bob

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

You'll get more life, and better accuracy from the Used Mori. It has more Horsepower and is a far better machine in every aspect except for price. If I were writing the check I'd take a used Mori over a New Haas, Fadal, Cincinati, Hurco, etc...

[Guest]

What are you going to be cutting mainly? That I think will be an influence on your decision.

 

If it is all basically lightweight stuff and you plan on replacing this macine in 6-10 yrs then in my opinion, the new Haas is probably the way to go. If you are going to be doing some more heavy duty stuff or aggressive cutting tight tolerancing and you are looking for longevity I would gravitate towarss the Mori.

 

I just think over the long haul the Mori is the better machine. So it really depends on what you plan to do with it.

[Bob_Looney]

JMParis: I'll spend this week cutting steel and then back to aluminum for the rest of the year.

I do one or two aircraft jobs / year with bearing bores +-.0004" I've been holding that on this 3 year old Akira-Seiki.

I load bar stock all day, then bolt the bars to another bar used as a fixture for the final op. I have from 30 to 150 loads per day. I finally figured those loads were costing me some $$$. That's the reason for the pallet. the tooling for a horizontal puts it way up there too and the horizontal option is getting pricey.

I'm a one man shop so I want the best efficiancy I can get for the money.

 

I will be retiring in 9 years 10 months so I could replace a 100k machine in 5 years pretty easily. If i was to buy a new mori/pallet for 200k it would be the last purchase for me.

I look at the times for the used mori sv500 and they sure look good. 7 sec pallet change, .9 sec tool change...

[MIL-TFP-41]

Haas are not bad...as long as you get rid of them after 3 years of med/heavy use. They are just not built as well as some of the higher end machines.

[Guest]

quote:

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I will be retiring in 9 years 10 months so I could replace a 100k machine in 5 years pretty easily. If i was to buy a new mori/pallet for 200k it would be the last purchase for me.

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If maintained properly it would likely be the last machine you needed to buy. On the plus side it would still have some residual value.

 

So pay 100k for a machine now that you'll probably need to replace again before you're done. Or spend that cake now and make it your last machine.

 

I think that is essentially what it somes down to.

 

Though of course my thought process could be slightly skewed.

 

Wouldn't be the first time

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing Haas. Just want to say it is by no means a Mori. Not even in the same class. Also another machine that ages quite well - Kitamura. That Mori could very well be you last purchase and I can assure you in no uncertain terms that you will be replacing that Haas. I would put money on it. I have not seen a Haas that old, at least not seen one that has not been rebuilt, Mori on the other hand, I've seen numerous 20+ year old Mori's still holding ±.0005" all day long.

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

I am pretty sure you will get an extremely bad case of buyers remorse with the Haas. The Mori is a first class machine. Unless it has been terribly abused, a five year old machine is actually just getting broke in.

 

Mike

[Eric S.]

At least when our HAAS needs a repair man he can be here the next day or sooner. The mori guy we have to fly out $$$$ (I think ).

Something to think about.

[medaq]

quote:

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At least when our HAAS needs a repair man he can be here the next day or sooner. The mori guy we have to fly out $$$$ (I think ).

Something to think about.

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See this is the problem with haas to me. you are sold that when the machine breaks down you can get a repair guy out. compare that to a high quality machine, and yes you will probably wait a little longer to get it fixed.

 

But how many times has your haas broken down on a critical need it by tomorrow job?

 

Or add up all the times you are waiting for the haas guy to come repair your machine, To the one time you need to repair a high quality machine. I bet you add those times up and you are waiting longer for the haas guy after you total all the numbers up.

 

I have a enshu je60. And in 7 years of hard use praticaly 24 hours with crap for maintanence. I can count on one hand how many times it has broken down. And I still have a finger left to count. Now the fadals in the shop which are comparable to haas. Have a whole binder to there repairs.

 

If you can always go with the most quality you can afford. The repair bills and downtime always overcome the extra you spent for the better machine.

 

Jim

[Bob_Looney]

just got my qu qu quuoootte on the Mori nv5000 with pallets.

200k and change

chip conveyor is extra so I asked him.... how does mori expected me to get rid of all those shiney new chips? and he told me to get a snow shovel.

[Chris Rizzo]

What about the duracenter 5 mori over the nv series?...I think they are 30-40K less than the nv's ,and it seems like you don't really lose that much...

 

well, it just depends on what you consider "that much", but a cheap mori beats any haas six ways to sunday

 

m2c

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

Tell them to defer the amount of the chip conveyer at 0% interest for a fairly long period of time. Like a number of years(when the machine is paid for). They are making money on the machine, they can wait for the chip conveyer.

 

Mike

[jeff]

quote:

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The Mori is a first class machine. Unless it has been terribly abused,

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We have an SL-35 that we bought back in 1989.

That thing has been abused!!!!

Been crashed a million times,some of them very hard crashes too.

but its still hogs all day and holds .0005 when we need it.

havent replaced a whole lot on it cept for a board here and there.

Just recently had to replace the tailstock bearings!

awesome machine.

Our only Mori mill is an MV Jr we bought used off ebay.

I dont care for the 10m control (slow) but its a decent machine for being 20+ yrs old.

holds .0005 too!

the only problem we have on a semi-regular basis is the toolchanger arm throws tools.

I personally have fixed that a few times but we need mori to look at it and get it back to like new.

too bad our company wont pay for it

[Bob_Looney]

they want 60 k for the pallet system. midaco is 33k. anybody have experience with the new midaco automatic pallets?

the mori brocure says 16 sec for pallet change so it's probably like 20. 60K for 20 sec pallet change is starting to look like a bad deal.

 

Mazak's showing up tomorrow. Last time I saw him he was wearing more gold chains than Tyson.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Steven,

 

Have you bought new Fingers and Springs for your tool changer arm? That's the usual suspect when tools get thrown. That's only a few hundy and pretty easy to replace, should be able to get parts in a day or two depending on what method of shipment. I did it on a machine last place I worked. Couple of hours labor. Make sure you have a taper reamer. 3 1/2 Deg I believe. Your local Mori distributor can give you the exact spec.

 

quote:

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...If you can always go with the most quality you can afford. The repair bills and downtime always overcome the extra you spent for the better machine.

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+200,000

[?Mark]

Bob, try the Duracenter 5.

Ours is coming on monday

It's a less expensive sibling of nv5000 (the same casting and size).

There is not a whole lot of options avail for it. It's 20hp instead of 30hp and xyz axis are about 60% of power of nv5000.

No pallet option for this one but costs a bit over 100 grand.

I did a bit of research for this model and it seems there are no complains so far.

I got in an argument with a bossman, because I wanted nv5000 but looks like we made a good choice here as it is gonna be used for short runs and med cuts in alloy steel (btw, we opted for a big plus spindle).

We have 3 more Moris here and imho they are the best

Propably will look at a horizontal mori later this year.

 

Mark

[?Mark]

If you want to go for a used one there is going to be avail about a dozen of them in my area.

Got a call from a local guy who bought the whole lot. Most of them are sv500 from late '90.

We have sv50 which is similar to them. The only thing we have been doing to it as far as a maintenance is concerned since we got it in '98 is add oil and clean it

Awesome machines...

Mark

[Lars Christensen]

You get what you are paying for, I like Haas but it is deffently not on the top line of machines.

One thing about our Haas VF3 is that it takes forever to make a pallet changes, compared to any other machine I have seen.

 

Lars

[Bob_Looney]

Mark, I think I have seen those, (15) sv500 w/ pallets from CMS. looks like a cpl distributors are trying to peddle them if it's the same place you are familiar with. Trying to get an idea of machine hours right now.

they list 7 sec pallet time, is that right?

[?Mark]

Not sure about time, but if you need details contact Psychomill, if my memory serves right he used to run most of them when he worked for this company.

You can get first hand opinion about them this way.

I don't think You can beat that...

 

Kind regards, Mark

[?Mark]

BTW, if you need any of them checked out by a pro (ball bar and so on...) I can put you in touch with a local Mori guy who did installations and service on all of them.

 

Mark

[Bob_Looney]

thank you.

[Bob_Looney]

one of the liquidators emailed me, he wants about 115k. yikes

seem awful high for a 99. I can get a brand new nv5000 for 150, no pallet or conveyor though.

[moldmaker10]

Just keep in mind with a used machine you do not know what you're getting till you have it. I myself when I started my business in '96 thought the Haas was a toy and I would be much better off with a better built machine. In my case a Mazak. One year later, had to have spindle rebuilt, in the 9 years I've owned it, had the spindle controller repaired twice. Keep in mind this machine does not run 24-7 by any means. But all things considered it has been a good machine after I had spent some bucks on it. If I had it to do over I would have purchased a new machine, the make is preference but I would have bought a new Haas.