Not a Mastercam question but......

[bhyde]

Here is my dilema, I have been handed a part that I need some help with. Maybe one of you can either supply me with the part, or point me in the right direction. The part is Invar 16mmx9mmx2.692. Flatness and parallelism to be .0001 (Metric) Nice huh!!! any help would be greatly appreciated!!

[Leocam]

I think there is something wrong with that call out .0001 metric is .0000039". How would you even inspect that, even if the tools accuracy is +/-.0001 it would not be good enough.

Even 1 tenth (.0001") would be hard to imagine.

I would call the engineer and get that callout clarified.

Leo

[BernieT]

Invar and Nilvar are almost identical, they are low expansion nickel/iron alloys used for gage standards and in glass-to-metal sealing like vacuum tubes and hermetic connectors. Approx 36-40% nickel. In the book it says that cold working, annealing, etc. have a major effect on the mat'l. It is prone to checking and cracking, also. Good luck!! You're going to need it!!!

[Elad]

[Leocam]

Elad I'm also Israeli, well actually my parents are I was born in the USA, My parents came here about 35 years ago. But I've been to Israel about 17 times. Last time I was there was a little over a year ago, about 1 week before the Palestinian uprising started.

Hows the economy in Israel, manufacturing wise. I heard not to great, but some companies like Elbit system and Rafael are doing good, "I wish I could get some machining work from them". And also,Where in Israel do you work and for whom might I ask.

My dad used to sell cutting tools. He owned a company called United Tool and Abrasives in Chatsworth, California, USA. He used to sell tools from Isaeli based companies, like Hanita and Iscar exclusively.

 

Shalom,

Leo Babic

Manufacturing Manager

Simon Brothers Precision Machining, Inc.

Chatsworth, Ca 91311

[bhyde]

I have checked with the engineer, the callout is correct for what he wants... I personally think that some of the engineers should try a 5 year stint in a machine shop to give them an idea what can and cannot be done. I cannot do anything about that now, fact is, I need the part manufactured, or as close to spec as possible. I have contacted LS Starrett about getting one of these made, they will make it, if it was made from either Ceramic, Steel, or carbide. Nothing else though... So you can see how I am up a creek on this one..

[Elad]

Leo,

It's great to know that you're one of us

You are always welcome to visit our place.let me know if you'll be in Israel soon.

Our factory is in a small city called Maalot (in the north of Israel).

Most of our work we do for big companies like Iscar,Creo Scitex,Orbotech,and also to Rafael.

The economy in Israel was not so worse cince 1948.but we survive,and we hope the new year will be better.

Where are you family??are they in Israel now??

Please let me know if you'll be in Israel soon,i'll be happy to show you our factory and what we do.

Happy new year!

[JAMMAN]

quote:

---

Even 1 tenth (.0001") would be hard to imagine.

---

I did some gage work @ +or- .00008 (inches) and it was easy yet time consuming. The CMM was over 1/2 million dollars and was only garunteed within .00004". The engineer needs training, because no one would be able to touch the part because the heat of their hand would throw it outside of tolerence.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: JAMMAN ]

[Leocam]

If thats the call out good luck, like you said some engineers just don't understand and need to take a few years of machining before drawing things that can't be made or make things more difficult then they need to be.

I'm not sure what it's for, so I can't tell you if that call out is more headache then it needs to be.

Anyways goodluck.

Leo

[Leocam]

Elad,

I appreciate the offer and I will definetly let you know when I'll be coming to Israel again.

I have an aunt and a grandmother in Israel. They live in Ramat-Gan. My mom is from Ramat-Gan and my Dad from Givatayem. I also have some distant family that live in Jerusalem. I hear they own a big construction company and have lots of money but we do not keep in contact with them. (too bad)

I've worked in my company for 5 years. Right now I pretty much manage the place and I'm begining to do some sales. I've worked here as a machinist

(bridgeport) and a planner. I have done a little work on the CNC but not too much.

Don't get mad at me guys but I'm not a programmer. I got on this site because I work with Scott Bond. And sometimes I like to talk you guys because I have some questions I think you may be able to help me with.

You're answer's have been helpful and are appreciated.

Can anyone recomend a website for me that I can go to and discuss more of the questions on my level. Like more sales and buisness related stuff for the machining industry.

Elad, also if you have a name or know someone I could possibly contact at Elbit and could some work that would be cool. I know they own a company called EFW in Texas, they have a lot of machining work. We are a great company and have alot of quality approvals. Give me a call if you like, you can visit my company website at www.simonbros.com and get my number I work every from approx. 8am - 5pm, I think our clock runs 10 or 10 1/2 hours ealier than Israel time.

Also did you serve in the army. Just curious if you picked up this trade from being in the army or did you learn in High school or after the army.

And are there alot of machine shops in Israel.

Thanks for replying Elad, Hope to continue to talk with you and hopefully one day we can meet up in Israel, maybe I will be going there before the end of the year for buisness.

Respectfully,

Yaniv Leo Babic

USA/Israel

Leo is my middle name.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Leocam ]

[Leocam]

Like Jim said such a call out would require an amazingly controlled enviorement to check it. Any change in temperature or even touching the part would cause the part to change.

You would probably have to keep at room temperature for at least 12 hours and then handle it with extreme care. Maybe Jim's techinque might work but even the tolerance +/-.00008" is too much for .0001 metric and you need some pretty expensive equipement.

Leo

[Scott Bond]

Hi

bhyde

I know where to shop for this.

Have the engineer Email me.

[Quickmike]

The only way I know of obtaining this type spec is by lapping. I would check the Thomas Registar for a local or regional companies that do lapping on a regular basis. I believe a popular method for checking flatness in this tolerance range is done with light waves, check to see if they have this ability. See if they can provide certification traceable to NIST.

[Trevor Bailey]

Leocam,

If you would like some god selling tips, do a search for Jerry Holcutt on the web. He puts on seminars called "Cold Calling For Cowards". The info at these seminars are great. The greatest thing for me is, they will send weekily tips via e-mail with other useful info. There is much more than just that, but that above statement should be enough to at least get your curiosity going.

[Leocam]

Thanks, Trevor I will check that out. By the way can recomend a discussion site I could go to discuss more my type of issues.

I understand this is a mastercam user site and while some questions are not mastercam related, mastercam is the purpose of this discussion group.

I've never really been into discussing things online, for instance like on this forum, but I'm beginning to see how helpful it can be and I'd like to thank everyone who has taken the time and effort to answer my questions, you guys have been great.

Sounds corny what I'm saying but I mean it.

 

Leo

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: Leocam ]

[Leocam]

By the way I agree lapping may be the only way to aheive such a callout, the question is, will they certify to it. Your best bet was to go to someone like Starrett, which you did and order a Jo Block, but you said they would not make it out of invar. Maybe try a different place and see if they can custom make it for you.

Leo

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Laping is the only way to achieve that degree of precision. That is in the realm of gage tolerances and about the only way to check that flatness spec is to measure it optically for wave patterns.

I used to work in a place that made HDD platters - Seagate, maybe you've heard of them? Anyway, we achieved flatness of 15-19 Angstroms, which is about 20 decimal places or so . We used a laser inspection system.

First, you'll need to mill it flat if it is not already, then grind it, you may want to consider Blanchard grinding, then lap it to finish spec.

Hope that helped.

[Toby]

Have you asked how the company, your doing the work for, is going to inspect this part? If they can't perhaps this would be a little bonus tolerance .

[cadcam]

Bad Toby.

But i do like it.

[bhyde]

The company I am making this for is the one that I work for and has very deep pockets for metrology equipment. The metrology department actually belongs to my department. They will use a tool called a laser mic. They also have optics to check light bands. Checking the part isnt going to be a problem, manufacture is a different story though.. Sooooo, If you know anyone with the capability of making this part, PLEASE contact me at my e-mail address!!! On another note, Hewlett packard also used to make hard drive platters and had some very sophisticated equipment to do so, but like all other business' when you cant be competative enough, you tend to lose interest in that field. The equipment has been sold and alot of our work tends to be handed out to vendors such as yourselves!

Thanks for all your help! This forum has been an invaluable source of information and help! I would also like to personally thank Jay (cadcam), since he has helped me out a couple of times!

[cadcam]

Thanks bill,

But i did not help in this tread that is for sure.

I hope that you do get what you need.

Thanks again

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: cadcam ]

[gstephens]

Bill, just for s**ts and giggles, can you post how much you end up charging the customer for this thing? Certs and all? Thought it might be interesting.

[bhyde]

I can post that information... I will be interested in it myself. I am sure that it will not be cheap, Considering I only need 4 of these items...

[Toby]

Bill,

check this place out http://www.surfacefinishes.com

it looks like they can do the job complete with not much trouble. It would be a good start to send them your print and get some feedback.

enjoy