New Computer Help

[Die Sinker]

To all- I'm starting to build a new computer for Mastercam. Here's a partial list of components- would appreciate any feedback.

Win 2k Pro OS

2.0 GHz pent4

1 gig. 2100 mHz. Ram

18.8 gig SCSI HD 10,000 rpm

64 mg. GeForce 4 MX 460 Video card

 

Gary Armitstead

Santa Fe Enterprises

Burbank, CA

[JAMMAN]

That's some serious stuff. The "MX" thing should work with Win2k, but since money obviously isn't an object I would look into another vid card if for no other reason the bad press that the MX has received on this forum. Do a search for "MX" and it will turn up a lot of negativity.

[d0gFartz]

JAMMAN brings up an excellent point,i wouldnt go with that video card,go for something built for cad/cam work,3d Labs Oxygen cards are an excellent choice.I would prolly go with WinXP pro too but thats just me

[JAMMAN]

BTW, don't get a motherboard with the intel 845 or 850 chipset if you want to use your chosen DDR.

[Die Sinker]

Thanks for the help guys. Being a 58 yr. old die maker from the days of "turning handles", I appreciate the help from the younger guys. My daughter's boyfriend is building this computer for me and I will pass this info about the MX card along to him. I am presently using a pentIII 450 with a Diamond Viper 32 mg and it has performed "ok" except for really large shaded drawings in rotation. I'm anxious to see the difference in toolpathing speed with this new machine. I do large multiple surf Catia and Pro-E machining cavities in forging dies. Thanks again.

 

Gary Armitstead

Santa Fe Enterprises

Burbank, CA

[cadcam]

Hi sir Take a look at getting one of these cards. VX-1 AGP4

 

Every thing eles is good as I can see.

You can't go to wrong.

 

Who makes the board if I may ask?

All so what made you go with the new DDR ram P4 instead of a Rambus standerd 600 to 800 buss ram?

[Bullines]

If you're set on a GeForce4 (I sure would be ), I'd go for one from the Ti line of cards. The MX line of the GeForce4's are great for business apps. The Ti line is the hardcore performer. And from the specs that you've listed already, money doesn't seem to be an issue. I side with Jamman on this one. MX = lite version.

[Die Sinker]

Hi Jay- My daughter's boyfriend (fresh out of the USMC doing their networking and computer work) recommended all of the items. I believe that the Oxygen card is the one I will get. The ram and 10K rpm SCSI HD I need because I need speed in toolpath processing. I need a fast video card because most of my files are 10-15 megs. Thanks for the help Jay- see you at WESTEC.

 

Gary Armitstead

Santa Fe Enterprises

Burbank, CA

[mold100]

I use a 3d labs oxygen card but I cant tell you anything about it,I just got a new computer 2gig pentium4, 400meg front bus,768 megs of ram,90 gig storage,for what windows NT which doesnt support my 600 dollar graphics card and I feel is kinda lousy,Were supposed to go to 2000 pro,but I have been hearing that for months.GOOD NEWS we cut the p.o. # for V9

[cadcam]

Hi Gary,

 

quote:

---

The ram and 10K rpm SCSI HD I need because I need speed in toolpath processing.

---

So you know the speed comes from the processor not the drive.

The ram does help as it is going thru its passes.

 

The difference now a day between the hard drive is not that large any more.

 

Don't catch me wrong the faster 10,000 to 15,000 drive do move data faster, with the 180 Meg 5.2 transfer.

 

But now you have the 7200rpm 7.5trns fer 133meg drives for have the price.

 

I would stay with what you are getting.

But good components that work together make a big difference.

 

I suggest the ABIT or Asus mother board with the SCSI go with the Rambus at 800 FSB 512 or more.

 

I do agree at this time stay with the Win2K for now being.

 

I would say a 350 power supply.

 

As for faster video then go more with this card or higher

Let’s say a 3D labs card or you can go to the Elsa Gloria cards II too.

 

Now here is my stupid .002 cents.

 

Thanks Gary.

And I will look forward to seeing you at Westec.

[JAMMAN]

Ooh Jay, for once I gotta dis-agree with you on the rambus. Get an Abit ABSD7-533 OR Asus ASP4 S333-WA. Both have that Sis645 chipset and support ATA100, I don't think he needs the SCSI either. Bang for buck I think it kills SCSI.

Both those mobo's are relatively inexpensive and support his allready good choice of DDR.

[cadcam]

Ok,I will not fight with that.

I was just saying going that far the little more for the Rambus why not.

 

Oh ya I forgot,how dare you question the mighty Wizard

 

Ok whats that from.

Hey off to my parents office to sit infront of the big silver screen and watch some 16mm prints of Chuck Jones cartoons. (not sure if they were 16mm or 35mm)

 

Sense we all know he died this morning.

 

Talk again this after noon.

 

J

[Die Sinker]

Hey guys- Went to Fry's today and I think you are right about the cost of a SCSI system. Although the seek time is quick, I don't know if it is worth the extra cost. The SCSI adapter is more than the HD! But I did find a T200 Titanium card with 128 mg of ram that looked pretty good ($230). But for Mastercam, the ram and the P4 2 gig should be a big difference.

 

Gary Armitstead

Santa Fe Enterprises

Burbank, CA

[cadcam]

Is that the one off of hollywood way in burbank. the one with the ship above the door?

[JAMMAN]

quote:

---

Oh ya I forgot,how dare you question the mighty Wizard

---

I didn't know Bullines was that involved in this thread!!!!

 

[ 02-24-2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: JAMMAN ]

[bryan.davis]

WARNING you follow this and it goes wrong then it aint my fault READ THE WARNINGS!

 

OK, you want a serious computer thats good value then

 

OVERCLOCK!!!!!!

 

Ive seen 2gig Intel chips run at over 3.5gig, and heard of figures in the 5G range!!!!

 

This is something that if done with care then will be as reliable as a regularly clocked PC but if botched will result in a heap of silicon slag.

 

requirements

 

1 EXTREAMLY GOOD ADVISE there are plenty of companies that will sell your proven overclocking kits, if its your first time out then take their advice.

 

2 EXTREAMLY GOOD COOLING a heavily overclocked unit will produce a lot of heat, you can now get compact refigeration units that will cool your chip , dont forget good case ventilation either!

 

3 A good chip preferably with a downrated core. ever consider intels manufacturing facility, all those lines producing 2G, 1.8G, 1.7G 1.6G 1.5G chips?, well they dont always exist, intel may only produce 2G chips then re-lable them as a lower rate, this steamlines their manufacturing but gives them an apparant range of perormance, it is very common to find that your 1.5G chip really has a 2G core, and with a little tinkering can be run as a 2G, BUT AGAIN LEAVE THIS TO THE PROS, ask for a downrated core chip and they should have them.

 

4 an overclocking motherboard one that allows you to set the bus speed and multipliers to what you want remember increase the multiplier then you increase the processor speed, increase the bus speed tehn you increase EVERYTHING memeory the lot!!!!

 

5 GOOD memory forget about the bargain kit, go for top notch branded memory the cheap stuff may not be as robust!

 

you can also overclock your graphics card seek advise!

[cadcam]

Sorry but for what we do,I do not beleave in over clocking.

I watch the gamers do it all the time.

 

JM2C

[Die Sinker]

Jay- I agree. I think I would leave over-clocking to the experts. And yes, the Fry's on Hollywood Way.

 

Gary Armitstead

Santa Fe Enterprises

Burbank, CA

[JAMMAN]

Dudes, I'm far from being an expert. Eventhough I'm not nearly as entheusiastic about overclocking as Mr. Davis seems to be, It is the only way to get tomorrow's performance at today's price. Think of it this way- you wouldn't want to put dual blowers on your chevette, but a header with a freer flowing muffler and flipping the air cleaner will make it quicker and not destroy the motor.

 

PS- everything I have overclocked runs fine with the stock cooling fans. I'm a "conservative" overclocker. The above mentioned chevette alteration would not require a larger radiator.

[bryan.davis]

"for what we do....." isnt exactly the best argument against overclocking, in fact "for what we do...." is the best argument FOR overclocking.

 

yes, it is something that needs to be done with care, but its something that anybody who is planning on building their own box should seriously consider.

 

take a look at this website http://www.overclockers.co.uk/ and bear in mind that us in the UK pay through the nose for everything, there may be stateside site that offer better VFM.

 

OCUK are a very good outfit that dont only supply gamers, all their kit is well proven and often tried and tested to destruction, these guys do know how far you can push it and the kits they sell are not as close to the brink as you may think, its not unheard of for a regular overclocker to get another 10/20% of reliable speed from an OCUK kit, a pro well, like ive said earlier there are some seriously hot PCs out there!

[Bullines]

Ah, the notion of overclocking. I should note that some components overclock better (and safer) than others. Most video cards, such as GeForce GPUs, tend to do well. However, many of those who insist on cranking up the cycles on their CPU probably don't realize that what they're doing isn't all that beneficial. Overclocking a CPU increases the frequency of clock cycles and forces the whole quality vs quantity to come into play.

 

Let's say you overclock a PIII 800 MHz (800 million cycles/sec) to 933MHz (933 million cycles/sec). Now let's give that CPU a task. Imagine if you will, that the CPU is yourself. We'll give the CPU (you) 50 arithmatic problems to solve. First, you attempt to solve the problems at your comfortable 800 MHz pace. Easy right? You weren't rushed and gave each problem enough thought to solve it. Now let's give the CPU (you) a different set of 50 questions to solve, but this time you have to solve the problems more quiclky than before. Odds are, the CPU (you) will probably fare worse than when you were able to go along at your own pace. So what do some errors in a set of 50 questions mean to you? It means BSODs and hard lockups. And I haven't even mentioned the damage to the hardware...

 

If you tend to get new computers frequently and rarely salvage parts from older systems, then overclocking could be a choice. If you want to safely increase performace, buy more RAM. The prices are still quite low.

[bryan.davis]

thats a poor analogy for overclocking, the car analogy is much better,and the point your trying to make is equivalent to over-reving the engine to a point where the emu cant handle the timing correctly and gives you mis-firing.

 

The quantity vs quality issue only really comes into play if you dont manage the cooling properly, because its mostly due to heat not speed.

 

So what has anybody got against running a 2Ghz chip at 2Ghz even though its only got 1.5Ghz printed on its case?

 

further your example of increasing an 800 chip to 933 is a little bland, most 800 chips could be upped to 933 without additional cooling, Ive been running a 600 at 700 for 18 months with its stock cooling and it hasnt even flinched!. given proper cooling theres no reason why you cant get 1.2 out of an 800 chip.

 

Overclocking is something best done in stages, a good overclocking motherboard includes temperature monitoring so you can see exactly what is happening to the chip, if the chip runs too hot or becomes unstable then drop it down a notch, if it remains good then try the next notch up, eventually you find an optimum ballance point where the chip will run stable and cool which will be well above the chips rated speed.

[Bullines]

quote:

---

thats a poor analogy for overclocking

---

I know, I know. Bad computer scientist [slapping my own hand]

 

quote:

---

further your example of increasing an 800 chip to 933 is a little bland

---

Careful. I didn't say which kind of PIII CPU it was and there are a couple of flavors, some of which overclock better than others.

 

quote:

---

Overclocking is something best done in stages, a good overclocking motherboard includes temperature monitoring so you can see exactly what is happening to the chip, if the chip runs too hot or becomes unstable then drop it down a notch, if it remains good then try the next notch up, eventually you find an optimum ballance point where the chip will run stable and cool which will be well above the chips rated speed.

---

I couldn't agree more. The last thing you want is heat working away on those waffer thin (Monty Python reference warning ) 0.18 micron transistors. They just don't make 'em like they used to; big and slow

 

Essentially, Bryan, I was playing the devil's advocate role here. I thought it was needed since most people that visit this forum are CNC programmers and machinists; not computer people. Don't worry Bryan, I'm a tweaker myself

[bryan.davis]

quote:

---

Careful. I didn't say which kind of PIII CPU it was and there are a couple of flavors, some of which overclock better than others.

---

This is true, generally I prefer playing with Intel chips as they run a lot cooler than their AMD counterparts, most overclocking gamers I know tend to prefer AMD chips, but I think the lower base cost is the key factor here.

[Bullines]

I've noticed that lot of "anti-big company" people like AMD. I think a lot of those are people that run Linux for all the wrong reasons, too. I'm an Intel fan, myself. I tend to believe the saying, you get what you pay for/. Plus AMD, after all, manufactures x86 semi-conductor clones. And we all know that Intel is the x86's inventor