Mori NV, Okuma MB, Matsuura V-Plus

[chris m]

I am currently looking at some VMCs for very-tight-tolerance drilling & reaming of some holes, as referenced in an earlier True Position thread. The main competitors are as follows:

 

Okuma MB-46VAE

Matsuura V-Plus 800

Mori-Seiki NV5000

 

We have some background with Okuma / Robert E. Morris and Matsuura / Methods Machine Tools, but not much current with Mori Seiki / Tyler Machine Tools. If anyone here has some good working knowledge of any of these particular machines, or any really positive or really negative things to say about the machine tool builders or representatives, please fire away.

 

C

[?Mark]

quote:

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drilling & reaming of some holes

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Mori comes standard with a big plus spindle and I think you can still order one from the factory with a raised head (which will give you few extra inches of travel on z axis.

jm2c

[MIL-TFP-41]

quote:

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Mori comes standard with a big plus spindle

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As does the Matsuura. We have a V-Plus 800 & it runs like a Matsuura...that it is pretty damn good. It does have the 840Di control on it, which I personally think is better than any Fanuc, but others might not think so. I think to get the tolerances that you are after, no matter what machine, you should get one with scales.

[chris m]

Scales are a definite; that's why I'm looking at the V-Plus instead of the ES [which has no scale option]. Our mothership in Japan just bought [3] V-Plus 550s for this purpose, but I think the main reason they picked Matsuura of the Okuma is that their operators are used to the Fanuc control. I like Matsuura's machines just fine, but I'd like as much info as I can get.

[Mic]

Matsuura also has a Mold.Plus-800. Basically a V.Plus-800 but it has box slideways and comes standard with 20K spindle, scales and thermal compensation. You might wanna check it out.

 

http://www.matsuura.co.jp/english/products...lus_series.shtm

[Greg Williams]

Chris,

 

I am sure am Okuma MD series can cut the mustard for this task, I have no experience with the others so I cannot comment on them. I have seen Okuma MD's hold very tight tolerances.

[chris m]

Greg, I'm sure that the Okuma can make the parts, as I'm sure the Matsuura can too. I have already expressed to the parties involved that this is a 'show up and cut it' [thanks Scott Bond] project and if the machine won't do what I want that it is going back on the trailer, so the typical "pfffft...we can do that no problem" BS isn't going to fly.

 

Michael, I am going to stay away from box ways on this project; I think that the linear guideways on the X and Y in the V-Plus are a good thing.

[Preston]

I run a Mori-Seiki NV5000 and hard tool stavax 420 52-56 rc and elmax 60-62 rc we drill ejector pin on the 420 from time to time we will be adding one more soon very nice machine

[Mic]

Linear guideways is only a benefit when it comes to speed. Box slideways are more rigid and have a much longer lifespan. I've seen 25 years old Matsuura's with box slideways still holding a tolerance of 10 mircon. Box slideways are number 1 for everything except high rapid speed.

[chris m]

I disagree, hence the presence of chocolate and vanilla

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

Chris I think any of them can do this if you have okuma's stick with them. You can get scales, thermal comp and chilled coolant if you like.

 

one of the okuma cells we installed years ago makes electronic parts with .001 true position no BS and they have been doing it for years.

 

They have chilled coolant, building is temp controled, and all tombs are cast Iron can not have thermal growth on the tooling either.

[chris m]

Yeah, I like the Okumas a lot because of the experience I have with them and the machine has the .0001mm control option and scales and all kinds of cooling etc. The only downside with Okuma is that their probing macros exist in a veil of secrecy, where the Fanuc probing macros are there for all to see [and tamper with].

 

C

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

One "problem" that box ways have that linear ways do not is "stick-slip" and it shows up if you know what to look for.

 

Most alleged deficiencies with linear ways can be compensated for in changing programming technique.

[chris m]

Stick-slip, axis yaw, and the "plane" effect are [3] reasons that I'm not giving a box-way machine much thought for this.

 

James, you were a Mori guy; any input on the NV?

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

Chris I do not beleive the okuma probing cycles are all that imposible if you would like something I can get you in touch with the right guy.

[chris m]

They are "hidden" as far as I can tell, and I've been told by the REMCO guys [who are pretty good] that they are inaccessible to the end user. If you know someone who knows how to peek behind the curtain I would be interested in talking to them.

[Rick Henrickson The Boeing Co.]

Nothing is ever that locked down I will get you a number.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

The new Mori Seiki's are not your father's Moris. They've taken the "we want to be all things to all people" business model since Mr. Mori's son has taken over and that has taken some of the pride in ownership/exclusivity away from them. Don't get me wrong, they still are a fine machine tool builder, but I think they are no longer on par with Makino, Toyoda, Matsuura, Kitamura, Yasda, Mikron, etc...

 

They can tout their fancy buzzwords all day long but at the end of the day they are less than they once were.

 

JM2C

[MIL-TFP-41]

quote:

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Our mothership in Japan just bought [3] V-Plus 550s for this purpose, but I think the main reason they picked Matsuura of the Okuma is that their operators are used to the Fanuc control.

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I know that the V-Plus has a fanuc option, but the one we own has the siemens 840di. I am suprised that the ES does not have the scales option....we have a Plus & a ES setting right next to each other & you can tell they use the same casting (or very very close).

 

One other machine brand option for what you are after would be Dixi...they claim better than 1 micron (.oooo4in !!!!)accuracy throughout the range of travel. Big Big $$$ tho

[Greg Williams]

quote:

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The only downside with Okuma is that their probing macros exist in a veil of secrecy

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First I have heard of that. Renishaw also have a bunch of probe macros and if you don't like the Okuma ones. Also if you can always write your own as below,

 

(TO MEASURE THE CENTRE OF A HOLE AND BORE SIZE)

(AND UPDATE THE XY ZEROSET IF BLOCK SKIP NOT ON)

(CHECK RESULTS ON GAUGING RESULTS PAGE)

(WHAT IS THE HOLE POSITION IN X)VC30=0

(WHAT IS THE HOLE POSITION IN Y)VC31=0

(WHAT IS THE RAPID Z GAUGE DEPTH ABOVE THE HOLE)VC32=70

(WHAT IS THE FINAL Z GAUGE DEPTH IN HOLE)VC33=-10.

(WHAT IS THE HOLE DIAMETER)VC34=100

(WHAT WORK CO-ORDINATE DO WISH TO USE)VC35=54

(INSIDE DIAMETER GAUGING)

G15H=VC35

G0Z1000

T100

M6

G00X=VC30Y=VC31

G56Z=VC32H100

CALL OO18(TURN ON PROBE)

M130(SPINDLE ROTATION OFF)

G1Z=VC33F1000

CALL OO10 PMOD=7 PDI=VC34(DIAMETER OF HOLE)

CALL OO19(TURN OFF PROBE)

G0Z1000

G15H1

M63

M6

M00

(AUTO COMPENSATE ZEROSET IN XY)

/CALL OO20 PHN=VC35 PX=VC30 PY=VC31

M02

[chris m]

Greg, you're still calling Okuma's Bore / Boss macro 0010, which I cannot see or edit or copy. The problem is that it probes [4] places at 0, 90, 180, 270 and this is not always what I want to do. I understand that I can write a full-up custom cycle reading the hit positions, writing them to common variables, do the math, write the new value to my WOFS, etc. The point is that I shouldn't have to do that after spending the $$ for probing. In my Fanuc machines I can copy Renishaw's macro and make some alterations, or add some logic to the macro to rotate the cycle etc without completely breaking my ball$. I have too many machines and too much going on here to spend [2] freakin' days writing and proving out something that I feel I should already have.

 

As far as using Renishaw's macros on Okuma, they say "no." If you have different information I'd be interested to learn about it.

 

quote:

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One other machine brand option for what you are after would be Dixi...they claim better than 1 micron (.oooo4in !!!!)accuracy throughout the range of travel. Big Big $$$ tho

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The other options I'm looking for are pushing $200K, which isn't chump change.

 

C