Machine Choice For Cast Aluminum Prototypes

[Mr. Wizzard]

I work in the R&D department of our company. Most of the work I do is complex aluminum prototypes that become castings for production. Parts will usually fit in XYZ of 40"x20"x20". Tooling can get down to necked endmills of .250" diameter x 3" reach. I usually don't need smaller than that, but you never know what will pop up. Programs get extremely long, with very fine passes and run for 15-20 hours on current machines.

 

Right now, I have a TM-2 with 4th axis and a TM-1 (both Haas). I sometimes use a VF-2SS or EC-400 if production shop is not using them.

 

I am looking for suggestions on a new machine that will give me the accuracy I need and be able to run through very fine pass, long programs extremely fast.

 

Also, recommendations on tooling set-up would be appreciated. I currently use HPI and Techniks holders, Onsrud necked endmills, and Walter indexable cutters. I was wondering if it would be beneficial to move to shrink-fit tooling with a new machine.

 

I would greatly appreciate some advice on these topics.

 

Thanks in advance!

[chris m]

What kind of money do you have to spend? It doesn't help if you have $75K to spend and we all say "buy an Okuma " or "buy a Matsuura."

 

As far as the holders go, we've had good luck with Techniks; HPI always seemed a little low-end to me, but I have played with a couple of their holders and they seemed OK for the money.

 

C

[Mr. Wizzard]

For now, let's say money is not the determining factor. I don't necessarily mean that a machine similar to a VF-2, but costing $250,000 is likely. I am looking for the most appropriate machine for this type of work. I don't need a large machine. I need a fast one, within reason.

[chris m]

40X20X20 is a fairly large machine for most of us, I think.

 

Haas has a "mold" machine VM-3 that would fit your envelope requirements; since you're familiar with Haas machines this may be a fairly painless option.

 

Mori-Seiki's Dura Vertical line seems like you get a pretty good machine for the bucks as well.

 

I am a real lover of Okuma machines, but I think you're looking at some pretty serious $$ for the same size machine

[htm01]

like chris said, if haas stick with a VM the SS is not accurate after about 40ipm.the VM2 is a nice machine for the money 30x20x20

[Goldorak]

quote:

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I am a real lover of Okuma machines, but I think you're looking at some pretty serious $$ for the same size machine

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x2 really reliable and pretty fast

 

we own 2 40x20x20 (cadetmate4020 and mc-v4020cat50)

 

both of them support 4-axis and they are very reliable , the MCV4020 is a very powerful machine, id say a bit too much for aluminium, we cut titanium ans hi grade stainless like butter on that machine

 

 

BUT you got to spend a couple gran to get the DNC except if you get the P-200 controller with a 32GB memory space

[Joe788]

If you're not worried about money, but you ARE worried about serious high speed small line segment machining, either of these two machines would be pretty idea. They both have all of the whiz-bang high speed machining stuff, along with a "no-overhang" style column.

 

Makino V56i

 

Mazak Super Mold Maker 2500

 

From the description of your work though, it sounds like a new Haas VM series machine should do fine.

[Ron Branch @ Verisurf]

The Mazak would be my choice for the money. The Makino is one great machine, but they do not give them away.

[Mr. Wizzard]

Thanks all. I talked to the Mori guy today about the Dura Vertical and the Mazak guy is Monday. These both look to be excellent.

 

The question is: Can I sell it?

 

Thanks, again!

[Joe788]

CNC Wannabe, I hate to say it, but you'd probably be better off with a VM or SS series machine from Haas than that Dura Vertical (for this particular type of work). A buddy of mine has Dura with a 10K spindle, and he's been making aluminum parts with it 24/7. He couldn't get financing to buy another Mori, so he reluctantly bought a VF2SS. The Haas cycle times are consistently quicker than the Dura. If you're going to go Mori, have a look at the NV4000DCG (maybe too small), or the NV5000. They are quite a step up from the Dura. Unfortunately, the price is quite a step up too!

[Mr. Wizzard]

Thanks for the info. Do you happen to know if the lower run times are because of faster rapid or fastre feedrates?

[beej]

We had an okuma salesman in here a few weeks ago and Okuma had some incredible deals you can get the MCX4020 in your price range.

 

we have an MC4018 (the precursor to the 4020) I love that machine. It will do exactly what your looking for. We paid 60 grand for it used.

 

We have an okuma cadet mate too, it's cheaper and I would never have another one. It might as well be a Haas or Fadal.

[Joe788]

It was a combination of things. The 12K spindle vs the 10K, the rapids, and the feedrates. The Haas will contour faster than the Dura.....maybe not as accurately, but accurately enough what he's doing (and what you're doing).

[chris m]

As you said, the NV Mori machines are big dough; if you're going to spend that money I would buy the Okuma MCV.

 

As far as the Haas VF-XSS being a better machine than the Dura, I don't know because I have never been involved with the DuraVertical machines, but I have been involved with Haas VF-2SS and VF-3SS and they aren't particularly impressive; the VM-3 is supposed to be "better."

 

No matter what you buy, 10K spindle ain't going to make you a happy guy if all you're doing is aluminum contouring

 

[ 07-17-2009, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: chris m ]

[Joe788]

Oh I'm definitely not saying the ANY Haas machine is better than a Mori Dura. I think they are kinda crappy. Even the guy I was talking about earlier said he'd never ever buy another one. I just wanted to point out that he might be disappointed spending a $110K on a Dura only to find slower cycle times than a $65K Haas. Sounds like they must be somewhat satisfied with the Haas equipment they already have, so I imagine an VFSS or VM machine would meet their needs.

 

If it were my money, and I was really serious about high speed 3D contouring in aluminum, I'd buy the Mazak FJV250 with the 40hp, 25,000rpm spindle. Or more on a budget would be the Nexus 510 with the 40hp 18,000rpm spindle. The Nexus is a C frame machine like the Dura or Haas, so not exactly the most rigid thing in the world. But the Makino V56, Mori NV4000 and NV6000, and the Mazak FJV are all bridge type machines with ridiculous rigidity and accuracy.

[Mr. Wizzard]

I don't necassarily need the extra horsepower that seems to come with the additional RPM's, but it doesn't seem I can avoid it.

 

I guess I need the RPM's to make faster, more accurate feedrates worthwhile. Since mostly this affects finishing surface toolpaths with smaller diameter tools and faster feedrates, the higher RPM's would definitely seem needed.

 

Any ideas on the difference between a HAAS VM mold machine and a VF-x SS? I'm guessing different ballscrew pitch for faster rapids on the SS and more accuracy at higher feedrates on the VM?

[Mr. Wizzard]

I also would like to throw another wrench in this. Would the addition of a 4th axis change any of your opinions or recommendations?

 

Thanks.

[chris m]

Haas is definitely going to be the cheapest for a 4th axis, Okuma is stupid money for 4th axis because you need to put an Okuma motor in it, anybody with a Fanuc is going to be in the middle somewhere.

 

I would tech out the VM-3 versus VF-3SS with your Haas rep; I think that the VM is more geared toward HSM than the VF machines are, but not totally sure how they do it.

 

C

[Joe788]

quote:

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Any ideas on the difference between a HAAS VM mold machine and a VF-x SS? I'm guessing different ballscrew pitch for faster rapids on the SS and more accuracy at higher feedrates on the VM?

---

From what I understand, the machines are the same, except the VF-SS's ridiculous "high pitch low accuracy" ballscrews were replaced with a tighter pitch ballscrew for better accuracy (and the accompanying slower rapids). Something worth noting: A tighter pitch ballscrew doesn't make up for low budget servos, encoders, and machine structure. I'd take the VM over the VF.

[Newbeeee™]

If money is not an issue, but accuracy (with speed) is, then I wouldn't look anywhere else than Matsuura.

In the old company, we had an R800 vertical and used to waterline ally at 20k rpm & 15000mm/min feedrates.

Truly amazing machine.

+ it cut titanium well also.

[MultiAxGod]

Kitamura, Matsura, Mori or Makino. Can add a Haas 4th to any of them. Haas sounds like its doing what you want though? Big price differences.

[Redfire427]

Without question, Makino is the way to go. Take a look at the S56 ( either 13K or 20K spindle ). You should be able to get one of these machines for around $150K. We have both versions of the S56 as well as two V56's. They are unbelievably fast ( scary ) and super accurate. If I was spending my own money, it would be on an S56.

[chris m]

Kitamuras are actually toward the lower end of the dollar scale for 'good' machines and may be a bargain; I am not a big box-way fan, though

[MotorCityMinion]

We have a s56 where I work. 20k spindle, HSK with the sgi option, heat shrink. Makes very nice finishes and does a good job with light duty hardmilling but we didn't get any usefull options with it for everyday job shop use. 1/4 mb mem, no editing options, bad laser pre-setter, terrible index unit, metric tool holders, and a Geradi vise. Nobody wants to run this thing. They saw our GM coming and sold him all the crap they had lying around.

[Chris Rizzo]

m2c.

 

I've run the exact same program on a first gen. 10k Duracenter, a 12k vf-2ss, a 15k vf-3, and a 12k yci-nsv. Fairly complex 3d part.

 

-Duracenter far and away the best parts. Smooth and powerful machine.

 

-yci good parts, not quite mori though. Beats the vf3 by a long shot. Big plus spindle. I think around 1600-1800ipm rapids.

 

-vf3 ok parts, but you can tell the machine is big and flimsy. Also have to find the best rpm the thing runs at. 15k does not mean you really want to use it. 13.5k was our best frequency situation for our spindle and good finishes.

 

-vf-2ss parts not passible at all. Oh, one spindle 10k was optimal, the other 9k, and it needed a third spindle when we sent it back to haas.

 

 

I used the same program for apples to apples. (Obviously I eventually re-programmed the mori for way faster feeds & deeper cuts.) Yci too. So there's your faster cycle times right there. Regardless, your prototyping right? so cycle time anyway probably isn't the biggest concern.

 

a plus for the haas, cheap and easy 4th axis. 40 x 20. You know the control from all the other Haas's at your place. Big files no problem. I'm not sure what the table is of the current dura, but I think it is smaller. Also 4th axis will be about 2x the $. You might consider a dataserver too, although there are workarounds.

 

all that said, I've been playwith a mori nv lately, and that would be my first choice.

 

oh, if you go fanuc, talk to cnc aps guy (james) and get his recommendations on the most applicable level of ai-nano.

 

[ 07-18-2009, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: Chris Rizzo (Italian' stylin') ]