Ball lock mounting system

[alanu23]

Is any one out there using the Ball Lock Mounting system that CarrLane sells? The model I am looking at getting boasts 3000lbs of hold down force.. I can talk to the reseller and I know they will say it can do all they say, mow my lawn and clean my house.. I figured that someone on here is or has used them and has something to say about them.. Any comments would be appreciated. Or suggestions if any one knows any other simalar products that locates and holds down pallets fixtures etc. The unit is pictured below.

 

[Sandybar]

We use them exclusivly on all our A81 machine tool pallet tracks. Holding 700 pound fixtures in a vertical positon on a toumbstone, then do Heavy milling too.

 

Great Product. I don't think they will mow the lawn though.

[Nick Eaton]

Great system. Used it on a twin spindle 42 pallet 50T Mori cell.

Its expensive if you are going to do a hole pattern on your tombstones/beams/subplates. But if quick accurate fixture changes are what you are after I haven't come across anything to beat it.

And its an investment that pretty much pays for itself on a daily basis so the costs are acceptable.

Cheers

Nick

[Dave.L]

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I haven't come across anything to beat it.

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Unilock from Schunk will beat it but it's a different animal. Expensive but awesome - very accurate.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

The thing about the Ball-Lock system, Mitee-Bite system and Unilocks is that even though they are not cheap, they are not dedicated. You can transport from one job to another to help keep costs down. You don't always have to have to have a ton of inventory on that stuff.

 

JM2C

 

Oh, and yes, they work as advertised.

[Ron Branch @ Verisurf]

Yes and well worth the money spent for them.

[Nick Eaton]

Have to disagree with Dave....Ball Lock is a much more flexible system for a wider range of part sizes/shapes than Unilock.....which also appears to be good for parts that fit....

So it really depends on what sort of work you are doing.....

Cheers

Nick

[Dave.L]

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Have to disagree with Dave....Ball Lock is a much more flexible system for a wider range of part sizes/shapes than Unilock

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As I said, Unilock is a different animal.

 

But how part size / wider range does not apply to Unilock, I don't understand. Unilock is simply a Zero-point location and clamping system that is designed for tool-less changer over. We use this system in all our mills and we build dedicated fixtures and also use it for modular work holding.

 

Again, it's a different system for a different purpose than ball-lock.

 

The Unilock system locates on tapers, not straight pins so it's much more accurate. It is also very easy to get the fixture on and off - no binding as with straight precision locators.

[ktd]

We use the Jergens ball lock system. It works well for us. A fixture change takes approx. 2 min. It also works well for vices so you don't have to indicate them every time you put them back on.

[SAVANT CNC]

We also have the Jergens system, here...!!!

 

It's a cool system, however, be aware that thermal expansion of your plate might affect the center center distance tolerance, +/-.0002. Therefore, it could affect repeatability and binding...!!!

 

Alanu23: Jergens also offers two options for the receiver bushing, the green bushing in ur illustration. We have the face mount bushings. I felt that if the bushing ever needed to be changed, it'd be an easy fix. And it has been. However, you could go with the back mount bushing.

Jergens also boast 20,000 lbs. hold-down force per shank...!!!

 

Dave: Imma look into the Unilock system, it caught my interest...!!!

[jeff]

How do those Ball Lock things work?

Do they expand and hold onto an ID?

I don't get it.

I've use Mitee Bites a few times, they have tremendous holding power, but they tend to make the plat lift up on me even while tapping it with a dead blow.

[alanu23]

Jeff, it is basically a big pin that aligns two plates through busings in both plates. There is a ball bearing mechanism that when you screw the bolt down on top in the illustation above with like 35 in./lbs. it expands on the lower busing id that has a ledge which the ball bearings grip resist against. I use the heck out of mitee bites pitbull system as well. I did a hogout once only holding onto .060 on a 2x2x3 block. Everyone here said I couldn't do it. Well.. with pitbulls I did. Were talking Mastercams facing 1pass toolpath 3" Iscar hm90 3 flute taking .075 depth cuts @ 200ipm... It looks like from the response on here I will push to get this system on my 5ax Haas VF5ss. I will probably be using pitbulls with the ball system and technigrip as well. We are trying to get away from setup bs and having to indicate plates onto the platter only to scrap the 1st part every single time. No more with this. Just alot of work for me! And speaking of technigrips.. look what I get to make....

 

[Dave.L]

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How do those Ball Lock things work?

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Just like a air hose coupling, but you need a wrench. Balls expand out and mate with a female groove of the receiver.

 

Proabably a few styles that all do the same in the end.

[Dave.L]

quote:

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I use the heck out of mitee bites pitbull system as well. I did a hogout once only holding onto .060 on a 2x2x3 block. Everyone here said I couldn't do it. Well.. with pitbulls I did. Were talking Mastercams facing 1pass toolpath 3" Iscar hm90 3 flute taking .075 depth cuts @ 200ipm...

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We do it all the time, even heavier cuts.

 

Alan, looking at your model, you could do this very easy with Unilock, single clamp module and it would be tool-less change over.

 

PS, I am not 100% sure on this but Techni-Grip may have a patent. If they do I would not advertise what you are doing.

 

[Dave.L]

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I've use Mitee Bites a few times, they have tremendous holding power, but they tend to make the plat lift up on me even while tapping it with a dead blow.

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Jeff, if you are speaking of pit-bull clamps, the trick is to position the clamp as high up in Z as you can. If you are above the center line thickness, the bow will be downward - therefore, no bow.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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PS, I am not 100% sure on this but Techni-Grip may have a patent. If they do I would not advertise what you are doing.

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They DO and as long as you are making then for your use and not making them for others and charging he's ok. When you make it and sell it is when lawyers and cease and desist orders fly around.

[Dave.L]

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They DO and as long as you are making then for your use and not making them for others and charging he's ok. When you make it and sell it is when lawyers and cease and desist orders fly around.

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I'll ask my patent attorney, I don't think it is OK to violate a patent at all. Making it for your own use takes a sale from them. I will report what my attorney states is the law when I hear back.

[alanu23]

quote:|PS, I am not 100% sure on this but Techni-Grip may have a patent. If they do I would not advertise what you are doing.|

 

Regardless of patent or copyright and what not.. If I make this for my shops use and not to sell.. They can't do anything about it. Except get some ideas on how to update their product line.

[alanu23]

If no one ever improved on other peoples patents and ideas, where would we be as a technological society today? We'd still be using telegraphs and steam powered cars. I wouldn't cost them a sale. believe me we have 4 technigrips already and use them alot. but the fact of the matter is they don't sell a model that has five sets of teeth, or locators outside of the clamping area. or a plate/technigrip base incorperated into one shortened and stylized. All I have to prove is that my model is 20 to 25% different than theirs. it just hinges on the teeth now, I think I can modify those a little. via the dovetail angle spring/bolt sizes. But the fact of the matter is that I am not marketing this. Just showin of my handiwork!

[jeff]

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Jeff, if you are speaking of pit-bull clamps,

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I've only used the hexagonal cam-lock mitee bites the put side pressure on the part.

I've looked into the clamps, but haven't made the jump yet.

[Dave.L]

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I've only used the hexagonal cam-lock mitee bites the put side pressure on the part.

I've looked into the clamps, but haven't made the jump yet.

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Yea, those suck. We bought some many years ago are just like you say, they pull the part up. We now use them for CMM fixture and they work well for that.

 

quote:

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but the fact of the matter is they don't sell a model that has five sets of teeth, or locators outside of the clamping area. or a plate/technigrip base incorperated into one shortened and stylized. All I have to prove is that my model is 20 to 25% different than theirs. it just hinges on the teeth now, I think I can modify those a little. via the dovetail angle spring/bolt sizes.

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Alan,

 

With all due respect, you clearly do not have experience with patents. Any good patent attorney will write the claims (the key part of a patent) such that the number of teeth, angle of the dovetail, number bolts, etc will be non-specific or non-limiting to cover all possible scenarios. The wording will be something like “a unit with no less than one and no limiting amount of clamping surfaces in which the angle can be greater than 0 degrees or less than 360…….”

[alanu23]

Dave- I don't really need to know anything about patents, I write programs and design tooling. In the world of manufacturing, evolution is inevitable. Everyone copies everyone.

 

http://inventors.about.com/od/patentinfrin...nfringement.htm

 

The US Patent Office has no jurisdiction over questions relating to infringement of patents. In examining applications for patent, no determination is made as to whether the invention sought to be patented infringes any prior patent. An improvement invention may be patentable, but it might infringe a prior unexpired patent for the invention improved upon, if there is one.

 

http://inventors.about.com/b/2003/11/13/no...ut-improved.htm

 

Brian, a civil engineering student wrote to me looking for additional information on Charles B. Brooks, the inventor of an improved street sweeper and single hole punch. Some people believe that Charles B Brooks invented the "first" street sweeper, however, this is not true.

 

Brian you touch on a topic that my readers often misunderstand, the difference between inventing the very "first" and inventing an "improvement". Inventions are evolutionary by nature and nearly all patents are issued for "improved" versions of the same invention. For example, Henry Ford invented an "improved" assembly line and not the "first" assembly line like many people believe. However, if people knew how to search for and then read patents they might understand them better. Charles B Brooks was issued patents 556,711, 507,672, 560,154, and 558,719 for his inventions. Brooks writes in his 556,711 patent, "I have invented new and useful improvements to street sweepers" and he goes on to describe in his patent how his street sweeper was better than the street sweepers invented before his.

[Dave.L]

Alan,

 

In your example, you are adding no new noval ideas to an existing patent, which could be also patented.

 

You think by changing the look or the number of clamping pads or the mounting you are improving on a patent and you are not.

 

quote:

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Everyone copies everyone

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If who you copy has a patent they can take action. I am still waiting to hear back from my attorney about the infringement without intent to sell (for your own use). I will post when I do.

 

But, I can tell you if you tried to sell this item and they do in fact have a patent you would be infringing since nothing in your design is novel. Novel is a term the patent office uses to describe unique, non-obvious ideas.

 

BTW, if you want a source for research, go to:

 

www.uspto.gov

 

That is the source for the facts.

 

quote:

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In examining applications for patent, no determination is made as to whether the invention sought to be patented infringes any prior patent.

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That is not true, the examiner will search for existing patents. And, just because a patent may be issued, providing prior art after the fact will null the patent.

[alanu23]

It will b interesting to see what your attorney says. I guess it depends on which side of the line you are on. The side where a company makes a product and wants to capitalize on its efforts or the side of the company that sees opportunities to impove products and capitalize on on its efforts.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Look at the battle that happened between RIM (Blackberry) and NTP?

 

Kind of the same thing looks like.