MTM for Mastercam X5 - Will it ever happen?

[Guest SAIPEM]

I'm preparing to head out from SoCal in the morning after having infiltrated the ESPRIT World Conference in Long Beach this week.

 

I need to preface my remarks by first stating I am a Mastercam fanboi.

I fully admit it.

I've been using it since V3 V4 DOS days.

 

After seeing the MTM in the Upcoming ESPRIT 2011 Beta and actually being able to use it for a few days I have some comments.

 

If Mastercam ever hopes to do anything in MTM, the time is NOW!

If Mastercam does not have a robust MTM product by the time ESPRIT 2011 is released, it is GAME OVER.

ESPRIT will have a lock on the MTM market and it will be IMPOSSIBLE to move them from that position.

They are almost there as it is.

There is much I really dislike about the product but when it comes to MTM, no one can touch it.

 

I hope Mastercam management is reading this because you have some big decisions to make about MTM. Promises have been made and broken repeatedly.

ESPRIT is very weak in areas where Mastercam excels but they are catching up.

They also excel at Knowledge Based machining.

 

Mastercam can no longer afford to ignore this.

It's [bLEEP] or get off the pot time with regard to MTM.

[pip]

I'm English, can you tell me what MTM stands for.

[William Grizwald]

Multi-Tasking-Machines... mill-turns and the like. Ten years ago Esprit had the market on them. Has that changed? That said, the demand while big for those you use them is small compared to the general cnc market. Maybe one shop in 10? And of those most are doing basic milling and turning so... YMMV.

 

--

Bill

[Guest SAIPEM]

Multi-Task Machining is what is driving the current CNC market.

 

ESPRIT barely ran on Windows back then and most certainly did not own that market segment at that time.

[Ron Branch @ Verisurf]

William I get calls all the time from shops looking for help with MTM machines and when talking to the people selling machines these machine account for a greater part of their sells than they did just 5 years ago. Cell systems, 5 axis machines, and MTM machines are the top sellers. HAAS from what I understand is still at about 600 machines a month out the door so VTC's are still selling. I see things on the Horizon for Mastercam only time will tell if the product comes into something competitive or just something that get its done like it has been since I have been using Mastercam.

 

Esprit big thing is you see what is going on and feel comfortable the machine is doing that once you post the code with these types of machines. Don't get me wrong I do some pretty wild stuff on our Integrex, but I also pull out a lot of hair and have got a lot more gray in since I have been making programs for that machine.

[Dave.L]

While Esprit posts rock solid code for our Mori NL (which is one main reason I am looking at it) don't fall to in love with the simulation of the machine components.

 

what I mean by that is the simulation is only as good as the model accuracy. I have not spent the time in Esprit yet to fine tune all the model elements so I have all that turned off for now. It will take a lot of time to fine tune all of the tools and tool holders and exact chucks we use.

 

Now, I create Solidworks model layouts to check tight situations and that is quicker and easier for me.

 

I will post more Esprit comments soon, but I will say again, the code is ROCK solid.

[William Grizwald]

Saipem:

I worked for a large valve manufacturer that had a demo of Esprit back in 1998 for the mill-turns. As I recall it had a cool way of synchronizing the tools and spindles. It was also VERY expensive.

 

Ron,

"Cell systems, 5 axis machines, and MTM machines are the top sellers."

 

No doubt about the 5axis side. Maybe my views are narrowed as I'm mostly at airframe shops and the calls for work are for 5ax large gantry type stuff. The two turbine shops I do work for do their millturn programming with spliced togethers from cam and hand.

 

--

Bill

[kunfuzed]

I was kinda just wondering about this. What's Mcams limitations right now and what do people have to do to get it to work?

[Dave.L]

Right on Katech, that would be a great addition

[Ron Branch @ Verisurf]

If you use solid layout you can get that very function for a blueprint. Or if you use project line to solid or surface models you get the same effect as well. I use solid trim all the time to get section views of parts and it works with any WCS. For surfaces trimming surfaces to lines can be hit or miss, but sometimes it surprises me.

 

HTH

[YoDoug®]

quote:

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I personally would LOVE to see section/clipping planes... I can't express how much headache that would save on certain parts; or maybe HLR (hidden lines removed) similar to SW. Either would really clean things up when working on a complex casting with internal cores. Just a thought.

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I'm not going to go on some "HOOPS" rant, but how about just making the graphics equal to every other system out there. The display quality of MCX absolutely sucks. The solids selection absolutely sucks compared to say, NX CAM, Esprit, Even MCX in Solidworks. Now before the fanboi's come in and start singing "making toolpaths is what counts", here is what I have to say. To me this is a huge deal. I stare at a computer screen all day. Some days up 12 hours. I want clean easy on the eyes graphics. Clear easy selection of solids. It is absurd that MCX thinks it is on the same level (quality and price) as other systems when the graphics/UI are so sub par.

 

JM2C

[Dave.L]

quote:

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The solids selection absolutely sucks compared to say, NX CAM, Esprit, Even MCX in Solidworks

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YEP

[Guest SAIPEM]

I certainly hope the MC is making use of their new Integrex for MTM.

They do not have much more time to get something to market.

 

ESPRIT already support a new Mori that hasn't been released yet.

It's basically an Integrex type machine but with a secondary spindle. However, in addition to being a rotary axis like the main spindle, it also has a perpendicular rotary axis that is parallel to the main B-axis on the head.

 

This allows work in the secondary spindle to be titled at an angle for more efficient positioning and cutting.

 

There are many new features in ESPRIT that they seem to think were huge. Most of them I found to be laughable. They can now stitch surfaces together to create a solid. BFD, MC could do this years ago.

 

ESPRIT will now show the feature tree of an SW part. This is a worthless feature as the features are NOT editable.

They exists solely to assist in establishing KBM rules.

At least MC lets you edit the features.

 

No dis-joint solid or boolean operations in the ESPRIT modeler?

I'd love to meet the genius who came up with that idea.

The ESPRIT modeler is pure crap compared to MC and the MC solid is marginally passable.

 

I point these out because what ESPRIT has gotten right, and in a BIG way, is MTM.

They are also catching up in other parts of the software.

They are also the ONLY mid-range CAM company that actually had bottom line growth and increasing market share.

 

Mastercam had better start paying attention.

[Dave.L]

The new Mori you speak of is an NT I think. NT's have been out for a while but they just added this new axis to the sub-spindle.

 

quote:

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ESPRIT will now show the feature tree of an SW part. This is a worthless feature as the features are NOT editable.

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I was told it is for feature selection. Personally, I could care less about editing features within the CAM side.

[Guest SAIPEM]

I know it's Mori NT.

The additional axis is something no one else is doing yet and is yet another reason MC needs to get on the stick with MTM.

 

 

Editing existing features is a useful and needed tool.

 

Many time suppressing and/or editing features is needed to facilitate actually manufacturing the part.

 

ESPRIT doesn't even let you suppress them.

For all practical purposes, the feature items look nice in the display but serve no real function.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

This microscopic amount of information I know about ESPRIT (compared to what I know about MC), CNC has about a 9-12 month window of opportunity to make things right on the MTM front. After that, the only places they will sell to are current MC users if they are lucky. I've had a part in 21 sales now of ESPRIT/PartMaker. Full blown seats. Why? Because Mastercam does not have adequate MTM support. No simulation, no automatic synchronization, and no collision detection. BIG deals on thee types of machines.

 

JM2C

[Guest SAIPEM]

James,

 

I wouldn't even give it that long.

 

Realistically, they have about 6 months to make a go of it.

After that, it will be of no consequence.

The market will be mature and ESPRIT will own it.

[Dave.L]

quote:

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The market will be mature and ESPRIT will own it.

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As we are looking to move forward with Esprit, like any software it has it's good points and bad.

 

I don't think this statment is true since MC has a large install base and some people will just wait, I was not one of them.

 

To be honest, it seems to me that the Spirit of this thread is an effort to scare CNC software and I don't think that's gonna work.

 

SAIPEM, in another thread you did nothing but trash Esprit and now your comments are somewhat opposite. I guess I don't understand your point of view or your motivation. My motivation was to get a system that would work out of the box for our Mori NL and get a post I could really trust, for me Esprit is the solution. The best solution? Maybe/Maybe not. I would like to look at part maker too but I just don't have the time.

[MotorCityMinion]

I think it's pretty cool to be able to suppress features for surfacing. Sure, you can patch them in MC, but it's not as fast, and not necessarily as accurate as actually suppressing it all together. Selecting a feature vs walking around a solid and selecting individual faces sounds appealing as well.

[Guest SAIPEM]

Dave,

 

Did you even read my original post in this thread?

 

I'm not a big fan of ESPRIT as an all-around CAM system.

I've listed many of the things about it I truly dislike about it. Many parts of ESPRIT truly suck donkey balls. It's modeling, surfacing and curves tools are downright archaic.

It's method for creating feature chains from existing geometry uses the same method TekSoft did over 20 years ago. Hardly impressive.

I also stated, quite clearly, I am a Mastercam fanboi.

 

When it comes to MTM however, no one can touch ESPRIT.

Again, I say this after having spent all last week in Long Beach at the ESPRIT World Conference and managed to to able to use it for the week.

 

I'm not trying to "scare" MC at all.

They're smart people and they know their back is against the wall as far as getting something robust to market.

I'm simply reiterating the point based on my personal experience with ESPRIT 2011.

 

The current install base for MC is irrelevant to the discussion.

The question is whether or not Mastercam wants their future install base to include MTM users who demand a robust product.

I'm sure they are currently doing a cost/benefit analysis regarding this right now.

Whatever they decide, nothing will surprise me.

It may very well be that, from a resources perspective, it simply doesn't make sense for them to do it.

As a practical matter, "the horse may have already left the barn."

[Dave.L]

SAIPEM I simply fail to understand how in one breath you despise Esprit fundamentals but in the next you state how solid MTM is. If in you eyes Esprit basic suck so bad then how could the product have any value at all?

 

I also don’t understand why you would take the time to go to a conference for a system you think "sucks donkey balls"

 

Again I ask what is you motivation?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

---

The question is whether or not Mastercam wants their future install base to include MTM users who demand a

robust product

solution.

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Fissed.

[gcode]

I don't think they'd spend this kind

of money if they didn't plan on showing up for the party.

[Reijo Heurlin from Zenex Finland]

If you need synchronizing today in Mastercam. you can use CAMAIX Synclathe. It can also do machine simulation.

They have NC code machine simulation. The simulation is based on the same Moduleworks technology as the NCI machine simulation that you get free for Mastercam, so it is easy to learn.

See http://www.camaix.net/SyncLathe_en.html

and

http://www.camaix.net/NCX2Check_en.html

[Guest SAIPEM]

Dave,

 

Stop being deliberately obtuse.

 

ESPRIT's methods for creating toolpaths may not be my favorite but they obviously work.

They work exceptionally well for MTM.

THAT is my point.

 

No kludges in the post to get the output you need.

REAL collision avoidance, etc.

 

I have no motivation other than pushing Mastercam to get MTM working the way it should.