POLL: Fat Finger or CAM, 2D or 3D?

[McLaren]

I was wondering how many people still fat finger programs from scratch occasionally as opposed to doing everything in Mastercam. Also how many people draw in 3D only when required, and 2D the rest of the time.

 

[ 06-02-2010, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: McLaren ]

[crazy^millman]

Well it seems no one will take this one on so I will share my thoughts on this subject. Across the board application of anything is dangerous. Your questions may seem simple enough, but lead to what applies to what and where it needs to be applied as it can be understood. Seems like double talk well the can of worms you just asked is just that very thing. Are you an AS-9100 shop? Are you an ISO-9100 shop? Are you a FDA, DOD, DOE shop? These requirements have more to do with what you call fat finger programming and doing everything in Mastercam. Per any of these requirements you must have a documented method and process that you can check and qualify your results back to. By using Mastercam or any Cam program for that matter you then have a traceable, track able and audit able methods that will comply with any of the above systems or methods requirements. So yes we do everything in Mastercam expect straight jaws for the lathes or 4th axis mills.

 

So that leads into your next part. Is too much information a good thing or a bad thing? Lets see I was gone for a week and our company did not miss a beat on 16 machines because I am a provide too much information guy. Now if I were a do enough to get it done type person who did simple wireframes and made simple hand sketches and did not label every level do you think it would have been that easy and went that smoothly? You have to let the environment and the landscape of the company control what works, but I would rather have a complete map telling me where I need to go then some guy giving some rambling about where I needed to go 4 states over down 20 dirt roads. What do you choose the Map with detailed instructions or the 4 state trip you hope you understood right and remember right that required you to read that persons mind? I always say a picture is worth a 1000 words. With 3d models are you going to get a 1000 word picture or a 2 word picture?

 

I think you can see how I answered your questions.

[McLaren]

That was exactly what I was hoping to hear. Yes we are a AS9100 and ISO9001 shop. However we have a new foreman that wants me to fat finger and use Mastercam as a 2D guide for difficult profiles because we are too busy to "waste time". I have tried to explain that since they want to play with the big boys they need to let me take the time to do it right, and if that isn't fast enough then I needed to receive the training to learn how to do it faster/better. Well we don't have the time available for me to spend on training so we're back to just get it done.

 

I've gotten to the point where I can't argue anymore and figured maybe I was wrong and you guys still fat finger and do stuff in 2d. It looks like I wasn't wrong.

[Guest]

quote:

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Yes we are a AS9100 and ISO9001 shop

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Can you refer to you companies manual and see how it is documented?

 

There is a possibility he is waaay off base and could threaten your certification.

[crazy^millman]

Should be an SOP(Standard Operation Procedure) and somewhere in the quality manual 8.2 8.4 8.5 should talk about auditing and the process required. Then somewhere about 7.2 it should talk about document control. Show those to him and ask him if they want to keep being a AS-9100 shop or not?

 

Sounds like a guys who gets pissed if quality had the nerve to check your parts or see if your tools were calibrated.

[McLaren]

ROFL Crazy^Millman, that's him alright. We had a kovar part with a .500-.501 diameter profile that was bead blasted and when it came back QC told him it measured weird and wanted to look into it. The foreman said no, what happens in outside process is beyond our control and to just ship the parts. I about sh!t myself when I heard that one.

[Guest]

quote:

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The foreman said no, what happens in outside process is beyond our control and to just ship the parts.

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[Newbeeee™]

We have a customer whose foreman has exactly the same attitude.

This is because he doesn't understand cam and hides behind the statement 'the old ways are the best'.

Heck, they make aerospace parts and it isn't unusual to have 12 operations on a part (which would be 2x ops on a hori). A fixture/setup for every operation!!!

 

Not that there's anything wrong with certain old ways, but more and more customers supply models and more and more supply dimensionless drawings.

It is the way everyone is going because what is the point of the drafy taking a day to detail a drawing if you can prog from the model and check (cmm) from the model.

Luddites. You just gotta love 'em!

 

Oh, and how can he override QC?

I wouldn't think he'd be around for very long with attitude like this?

[Newbeeee™]

We have a customer whose foreman has exactly the same attitude.

This is because he doesn't understand cam and hides behind the statement 'the old ways are the best'.

Heck, they make aerospace parts and it isn't unusual to have 12 operations on a part (which would be 2x ops on a hori). A fixture/setup for every operation!!!

 

Not that there's anything wrong with certain old ways, but more and more customers supply models and more and more supply dimensionless drawings.

It is the way everyone is going because what is the point of the drafy taking a day to detail a drawing if you can prog from the model and check (cmm) from the model.

Luddites. You just gotta love 'em!

 

Oh, and how can he override QC?

I wouldn't think he'd be around for very long with attitude like this?

[Newbeeee™]

Well talking of fat fingers - I typed out the reply and the screen went blank and the message said wait 30 seconds and hit refresh so I did and it posted twice.

 

I suppose it could have been 'computer thrombosis' ie a clot in front of the monitor but....

[crazy^millman]

Well we make landing gear parts. We do not do our job right people die plan and simple. Either it is right or is wrong. I would never have a problem calling the FAA on a company I worked for if they were not doing things the right way!! I fly and my families and friends fly and that part that the boss said ship that was wrong could be the one that brings down the airplane I am on or one of my love ones and sorry just ship it is my walking papers or his walking papers. If you are an FAA approved shop and your company makes a part that brings down an airplane the Shop foreman, the head of quality, and the management team all get a visit from the FBI. Might want to explain that one to him!!!

[Verndog]

quote:

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By using Mastercam or any Cam program for that matter you then have a traceable, track able and audit able methods that will comply with any of the above systems or methods requirements.

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Although that makes life easier in some ways, it's not necessary depending on how you've written your quality manual. A cnc program should not be used or stated as "product acceptance". Instead tie the model file and revision, and cmm program or inspection report to product acceptance. That way you can develope nc code on and etch a sketch and be legit. All you have to be sure of is after the QC buyoff that the etch a sketch program (nc code) is labeled with correct rev and saved within your approved file system.

[crazy^millman]

quote:

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it's not necessary depending on how you've written your quality manual.

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There is the magic phrase.

[MotorCityMinion]

"Also how many people draw in 3D only when required, and 2D the rest of the time"

 

I'll 3d model a part, never 3d wire frame, if it's busy enough. Doesn't matter if there is no surfacing to be done. It just represents a clearer picture.

 

Manually key in code? Almost never. Occasional tweak at the machine as required.

[Ron Branch @ Verisurf]

Funny how I can sniff the problems out when they pop up from time to time on the forum.

[chris m]

We still program by hand if it is something simple and quick. I can program a set of jaws or a simple face off, chamfer outside, chamfer inside part for the lathe or a drill and tap some holes on a bolt circle in the time it takes MC to start up; as a matter of fact, I get pi$$ed at my guys if they spend an hour drawing something up in MC and toolpathing it if they could've done it in [10] minutes with a calculator. The customer doesn't pay for pretty pictures, they pay for what goes out the door.

 

Since 90% of what we program with MC is turning, we work in 2D exclusively. When we first learned MC we used to wireframe all kinds of stuff and make solid models and such, but that was just a colossal waste of time for us because of the relative simplicity of our geometry.

 

C

[Dave.L]

If you are doing aerospace work then you need to comply with AS9102 first article inspection. AS9102 states that first article inspection is required when a CNC program is changed.

 

To quote the spec:

 

Section 5.3

 

3. A change in numerical control program or translation to another media that can potentially affect fit, form or function

[crazy^millman]

Which is why if you use a traceable method that you can control that has paper work then you are traceable back to something that can show what you are doing. Chris if you have writtne your Quality manunal to allow that then you are within what is acceptable. We have Part Number, Rev, Orignal Model name, Customer, Program Rev, Programmer and Date program was made in every header of out programs. Are the parts you running fall under As9100 if not then who cares. When I did job shop work I did all my stuff in Mazatrol for years and then sub out to a .eia sub for any complex stuff. I was making papaer mill stuff and weldments and kickstand, and anything that came through the door. I got it doen and took minutes doing it. With AS9100 you have to follow certain protocalls when it comes to the manufactruing of the parts. We make flight critical landing gear parts. We screw up people die. So would you rather use fly by the seat of our britches and hope we got it right or that we followed a quality system and did everything the way we are suppose to. Do I hate all the papaer work oh yeah. Do I think a lot of it is B.S oh yeah. However I got a job to do and to do that job right I have to do it by the book the way the book says I have to do it wither I like it agree with it or not that is my job and that is what I get paid to do. The person is dealing with a boss who thinks making kickstand for a bike is the same as making parts for an airplane sorry, but it is not. There are certain requirements they must follow and when they do not they lose their AS9100 certification. You lose that and you only do aircraft work then you just need to close your doors, because you are not going to be in business very long.

 

McLaren, I feel for you and problem is I get paid to do my job. If I knowing let things get done wrong or made wrong that puts others safety at risk then I am fault. I am paid to use my professional experience to do the right job. There is not enough money in this world for me to take a job were I am asked to do things wrong. I will do what I am told, but you will know how I feel about it. I document every thing. When it comes back to me why I did it a certain way I got paper work, emails and other things to support my point. Point is when I say not to do something or to do something a certain way I usually have a good reason for it. You want to override me because you are the boss then I will do it your way, but at that point the boss takes all responsibility for that project. If it gets to a point where someone doing the job is at risk I put my foot down. If the part will come out as scrap and not work I put my foot down. I have stopped shipments with the customer waiting at the door for them for 3 hours why I sat there and de-burred them the correct way. Doing things the right way is not easy. A lot of people would love it if I STFU when I am doing my job. I care about my job, I care about others, and I care about the company I work for. If I didn't care then I would not be at a position in life that I am at. Does not make it right, wrong or indifferent it just make me who I am. Having the balls to tell the Boss he is wrong and you will not do it his way is not easy, but what is more important your integrity or someone else way that makes you look bad?

[chris m]

quote:

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Do the parts you're running fall under AS9100

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No, we are not, nor do we intend to be at this time, AS9100 certified

[McLaren]

You rock Crazy^Millman!

 

And I want to thank everyone for their input.

Now...where did I leave my resume?

[Toonz]

I use all the options in your poll.

 

When I write manual programs it is usually because I want a parametric program. That way I can handle a lot of similar parts by simply inserting a couple of variables and have the program done in less than 5 minutes. As opposed to opening a drawing for one of the similar parts and applying toolpaths for 30 minutes or more.

 

For a lot of things that we do, 2D is just fine to apply toolpaths. Just the same, there are a lot of things though where 3D is an absolute must have.

[crazy^millman]

Chris you hiring?

 

It is a PIA to do AS9100 work, but it pays the bills so what do you do??

 

Chris is was good to meet you in person. You seemed smaller in person.

[chris m]

Ron, you would be bored to tears with our work. It was very nice to meet you as well, you are much less Tasmanian-devil-like in person; I'm sure JP, Rob K, and the other guys who met you for the first time know what I am talking about.

 

C

[Dave.L]

quote:

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you are much less Tasmanian-devil-like in person

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LOL

 

No doubt, this or any other forum does not do justice to the character of people, text email, whatever, always comes with the baggage of mis-understandings.

 

[jeff]

quote:

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We still program by hand if it is something simple and quick. I can program a set of jaws or a simple face off, chamfer outside, chamfer inside part for the lathe or a drill and tap some holes on a bolt circle in the time it takes MC to start up; as a matter of fact, I get pi$$ed at my guys if they spend an hour drawing something up in MC and toolpathing it if they could've done it in [10] minutes with a calculator. The customer doesn't pay for pretty pictures, they pay for what goes out the door.

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I couldn't have said it better myself