Increasing shop capacity

[Wade@Odyssey]

Our job shop currently has four 5 axis mills, five 3 axis mills and a few lathes. We have five production guys, only two of whom are good at setting up machines... we're trying to hire some guys but having a hard time finding them. We're working a single shift with a fair amount of overtime and not really keeping up very well. Also we have a few customers who would really like to send us more work. Most workpieces are aluminum and less than 12" on the longest dimension. The vast majority of stuff that goes on the 5 axis machines is 3+2 work with non-perpendicular features that could run on three axis machines but would kill us on setup and fixturing. Most of our jobs are only 1-5 pieces with an occasional 100 pc order and more recently we have had some orders of 2-3 thousand pieces. We can have probably have several more of those large orders if we can increase our production capacity.

 

What I'm thinking we want to do (in addition to hiring more guys) is get a horizontal such as a Makino A61nx with 134 tools and 4 or 5 pallets. The idea would be to program as much as possible to the library of tools kept in the machine, use a probe to locate and set fixture offsets, and to inspect parts and comp tools, and if possible capture data for first article inspection reports. We would also program all deburring passes on the machine to minimize the need for operators to handle the parts. The basic idea would be to make the setup guys job as quick and easy as possible and have his guys just load and unload parts and fixtures on the tombstones during the day and keep the machine running round the clock. I think I'll be able to handle the programming and I have Vericut so I can prove everything out before sending it to the machine, and best of all I've got a good programmer who has been doing a good job of keeping stuff going while I screw around with other stuff. Our bottleneck at the moment isn't with programming.

 

Probably the biggest obstacle I've got though is I've basically grown this shop from a manual mill and lathe in my garage and I haven't worked at other shops to get much experience beyond what I've figured out on my own. The ideas I've got about the horizontal machine are mostly from stuff I've read here on the forum and in Modern Machine Shop over the years. Not to say I'm in a total vacuum, but most of the guys I've worked with have either been from small shops or have just had machine operator type positions so they've never had much input on our process.

 

 

So does this sound like a sensible direction to try to move our shop? I expect it's going to take a lot of work to get the lights out operation going, but is it really something that requires a whole team to realize? Are there other ways to increase our capacity that might be far better suited to our kind of operation? I've been using Mastercam since version 7 and have been on and off the forum over the years so I know a lot of you guys really know your stuff and I respect and appreciate your input.

[Del.]

Welcome to the Forum Wade. I am sure there are many on here better than me who can answer your questions.

[Wade@Odyssey]

Welcome to the Forum Wade. I am sure there are many on here better than me who can answer your questions.

 

 

Thanks Del.

 

And I don't mean to mislead anyone but I've been on and off the forum for years. The name I used most was Nosserov and after that maybe I had something with a 65 or a 67 in it. I don't remember what logons I've had but with the email changes I've been through it was just a lot easier to re-register than to try to retrieve the old info. Maybe since I'm using my real name and workplace I'll be able to remember this one!

[JerryBenoit]

Yes you seem to understand what is going to be needed. However, looking at your lot size 1 to 5 pieces is small even for your larger runs of a 100 is small for what you are looking at. That is unless you have repeat work that will be there to payoff the investment. With that said, how long are your setups right now? Maybe taking a look at what you can do to reduce setup time would be a big boost to your production hours each week. by investing in fixtures and dedicated tooling, Up load your touchoff, the goal would be a set up in 15min vs hours. We have a dual turret and spindle lathe that will take up to 12 hours to setup on a new job. But after that we are under 2hrs without breaking a sweat. That is TEN hours of time we gained becuase we looked into reducing setup time. By look at it this you are going to invest the money now in the machine, tooling, and fixtures. Get ahead of the game by the fixtures and tooling. Also look into having your tools with micro chips installed, so that you can start that library, and if someone loads the wrong tool it will shut the machine down and not ruin your month. We even have installed those on our older machines, we have a 4 turret lathe that machines a jet engine shaft that we have to hand load roughly 15 tools for one operation. The operator is forces to read each tool with a wand before the machine will run that tool.

 

Jerry

[specv]

the 2-3K piece orders will be the only ones that benefit from this. Lights out has advantages, but you need tool breakage detection for sure. If a tool breaks you need to kick that pallet out of the machine and go get a new one and also get a backup tool. The makino system should handle this for you if set up correctly. Tool life is another big one to have. I don't think it would take a team but you need someone VERY capable of doing it. We had a few parts we ran unmanned, not lights out, on our FMS with 1 a77 and 3 a66's so 1 or 2 guys could run 4 machines.

[Guest]

AT one of the paces I worked, we had 6 spindles, we NEEDED to get more work through that shop using the same amount of spindles and manpower, here is how we broke it down.

 

We did a 5S in the shop, we went through everything, moved things around, set each station up so the the guy working in that area had a clean, well thought and laid out area, this meant he did not have to wander the shop gather tools needed to do his job.

 

Our 4 newest machines were all outfitted with Probes, 2 older Fadals were just about left by the wayside..

 

I designed, built or bought modular fixtures that fit about 70% of our work, I wrote macros to automate "much" of the setup process. I built into our post processors the ability to calculate TLO heights and output then as part of the program and setup sheet documentation.

 

We instituted a "tool crib" and tool crib attendant, all of our cutting tools and fixtures were tended by the attendant. We got him to measure the gauge lengths of ALL our holders, I then created a sheet, which I would define the tool used, holder used and needed tool stick out. He would assemble the tools, layout the modular fixture or pull the existing fixture from inventory. Everything was placed on a cart to await the machinist.

 

The machinist would receive the job, grab the cart with ALL of his stock, tooling and needed tools that didn't reside at his station.

 

These jobs could generally be setup in 20 minutes.

 

This was a HUGE change form the "couple of hour" setups we were doing.

 

Did we have "some" that didn't fit that model, sure we did but we set our process up for what our "norm" was and deviated only on those occasions when needed, we didn't reinvent the wheel every time.

 

We went from putting $750,000 in product through the shop to, in year 1 of these changes to $1,750,000. Those figures, were the dollar value of the work as it was later assembled and sold at "much" higher prices but that was dollar figure placed on those parts at that level of process.

 

Look very hard at your process and standardize EVERYTHING that you can.

 

There are people who will say you can't do it on small lot parts, don't let them BS, we were a small lot shop, nearly EVERYTHING we ran was 1 - 10 parts.

 

When you only run 1 piece, your entire run is setup time, if you don't have a handle on your set times, you don't have a handle on your processes. Cycle time is, what cycle time is....

 

Good Luck

 

edit: Oh and those Fadals, they were used probably only once a month, we achieved that level of increase substantially with 4 spindles.

 

And the bottom line answer to your larger question is YES, it sounds like you're on the right path.

 

That falls right under standardizing, particularly from the tooling stand point.

[Wade@Odyssey]

We have looked at our processes and made some improvements such as how and where the tools and collets are kept etc, but honestly probably not enough. We've also tried to standardize our tool libraries but between all the flat and bull end mills we use, and of course the taps, each with the corresponding drill etc, leaving a standard set of say 10 tools in the 24 tool machine mostly just seems to reduce our tool capacity. Maybe with a tool crib scenario though, we might not need to worry about keeping certain tools in the machine. We're supposed to be getting a stockroom clerk, or maybe we're working creating the position and I may be able to parlay that into a combined stockroom/tool crib position. We currently have no tool crib, the tools are out on the shop floor in a centrally located setup station. We'll also want to get a tool presetter for the stockroom/tool crib guy, which I've been thinking about for a while already and would consider a prerequisite with the horizontal machine anyway. I really like the idea of packaging the complete job and rolling it out to the machine. We've made some attempts along those lines but nothing quite as streamlined as that.

 

John, if you're able to share any detailed info about what kind of standard fixturing you were able to come up with and how to automate the setup process I'd be very interested. Currently we run most of our stuff in Kurt vises and try to keep the setup as simple as possible. My standard work instruction appearing in the first lines of comments in my NC programs typically look something like this:

1.0 x 3.0 X 4.5 stock flat in vise .80 min above vise jaws

XY0 stock center, Z0 to clean up top

And subsequent sides will typically also be vise setups with descriptions for part orientation and location. If the part doesn't seem to lend it's self to an easy vise setup after the first operation I'll try to run it on the 5 axis mill to eliminate the additional setups as much as possible. Pretty much anything weird shaped or having non-perpendicular features will go on the 5 axis machine to eliminate complicated fixturing as much as I possibly can.

 

 

We also have just installed Vericut this week and are trying to get the training scheduled so we can get that up and running, which we expect to help a lot on the shop floor. It can't fix stupid things like the guy loading up a 1/4" tool in place of a 3/16" (yes, he did!) but for the guys who pay attention to what they're doing, at least they will have a bit more confidence in the programs coming out of the office and hopefully we'll be able to relieve them from babysitting the first part on every job.

 

And our manpower problem is really strangling us right now too. For four 5 axis mills, five 3 axis mills and 3 lathes - two with live tools and one with subspindle, we've currently got only two good setup guys, plus two guys who can set something up if you give them *all day* and one sometimes helper. That's just the obvious crippling problem that we've been trying to resolve. After months of looking we finally have two promising looking applicants to whom we've made offers. Hopefully those guys will accept and turn out to be as good as they seem.

 

 

As for the actual horizontal strategy though, I'm a bit confused. I remember a few years ago having a discussion about batch sizes on horizontals and it seems like there was strong support for low volume work on horizontal machines. Granted I just started this topic yesterday but with 220 views I'm not seeing the kind of support I expected. I guess that's actually a good thing really. After all, what good does it do ask questions and get the expected answers? Might as well not ask if that's the case... I do still want to pursue the horizontal for several reasons but maybe I'll lower my expectations a couple notches and also will attempt to do some better stuff with what we've got. I really appreciate all the thoughtful input. You guys are great.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Like John said, Standardize, Standardize, Standardize. Everything from workholding to tooling.

 

In your machnes that have ATLM/ATBD (Auto Tool Length Mearure/Breakage Detection), USE IT! In some customers machine what Ive done for them is when they add a new tool to the machine, they put a 99.0 in the tool offset. In the tool change MACRO it looks to the offset and if it ses that 99., it runs the ATLM cycle. So that takes one step out of the process. Spindle probes are another biggie. They are worth their weight in gold.

 

 

You won't be able to push more work through without standardizing things though. Once you do that, you lower level guys (hopeully) will cantch on and when oe set-up looks like the others, they can repeat the process with a little supervision.

 

HTH

 

 

[Guest]

John, if you're able to share any detailed info about what kind of standard fixturing you were able to come up with and how to automate the setup process I'd be very interested. Currently we run most of our stuff in Kurt vises and try to keep the setup as simple as possible. My standard work instruction appearing in the first lines of comments in my NC programs typically look something like this:

1.0 x 3.0 X 4.5 stock flat in vise .80 min above vise jaws

XY0 stock center, Z0 to clean up top

And subsequent sides will typically also be vise setups with descriptions for part orientation and location. If the part doesn't seem to lend it's self to an easy vise setup after the first operation I'll try to run it on the 5 axis mill to eliminate the additional setups as much as possible. Pretty much anything weird shaped or having non-perpendicular features will go on the 5 axis machine to eliminate complicated fixturing as much as I possibly can.

 

Wade,

 

I looked at our work as a whole, and determined where the biggest chunk fell. From there, I designed up flat fixture plates with hole patterns in them. One quick change plate, located with Ball Locks could replace nearly ALL of the vise work across a WIDE variety of our parts, so just relocating pins and mitee bites and your setup changed. The were other plates with standard hole patterns in them. I could in a sketch layout to the tool crib guy where a fixture had to be located on the plate. Most locator type fixtures were no longer fixtures with big bases and/or clamps, they were things machined to mount to the base, then again using mitee bites, which ever size or variety necessary, a fixture could be presented in under a minute. Heck we even had vacuum fixtures that were mounted the same way, change over hook the hoses up and off you went.

 

All the machinist needed to do was dial over part, once he hit cycle start, the probe would come down and touch the top of the part and set the height of the work piece, it would then go into cycle to probe and locate the work zero once that was completed, the program would then load all of the G10 offset information and machine the part.

 

With the ball locks, preset tooling, a setup could be machining a part in most cases, 15 minutes.

 

As we leaned everything out, QC then became our our bottleneck, processing all of the first article items.

 

There was a plan in place for some on machine inspection of critical dimensions and documentation to allow the machine to continue on, while presenting QC with a bit of a respite in getting the first article out to the floor.

 

I started that project but never got to see it through as I left that company at that time and it was never completed. That company is currently being swallowed up.....

[Wade@Odyssey]

Cool stuff. We do have two machines that can set their own tools, but I don't know if I'm going to be able to get up to speed on those. They are DMG 5 axis mills with Heidenhein controls. They work well and have a ton of great features but our support is seriously lacking, especially since DMG and Mori merged or whatever they did. I'm afraid we'll have to figure that out on our own. Those machines can be a challenge since it seems like you have to know the secret handshake to get into the menu you didn't know about to find the option to set up the routine to do what you want. Well maybe I'm exaggerating, but those machines can be challenging. Uh, last time we had a service guy out here he didn't know how to check the alarm history, oh boy!

 

Standardizing tooling is another thing I've just begun to look at. We've always bought whatever tools to suit whatever job and stuck them out whatever was required. I'm looking at getting specific cutting tools that will allow us to use tool part number XYZ123 with holder part number ABC321 and stickout dimension of x.xx". That will allow me to keep that tool setup with the speed, feed and depth of cut in the Mastercam tool library instead of just putting in whatever seems appropriate at the time. Should simplify things for both programming and for the tool setup guy right there.

 

I'll also have to put some more thought into the standard fixture possibilities. Mitee bites? I've only used the ones that look like an U-channel with a wedge in the middle to spread them out. I cut basically the part shape into a plate, then used my mitee bites to lock the part into the pocket. That's clearly not what you did with your standard setup. The only thing I can visualize from the description is mitee bite eccentric hex clamps pushing the stock against dowel pins in your plate. But that's not going to hold a piece of stock for any kind of decent cut... I might need a sketch or something to see how you set stuff up on the plate.

 

I never heard of those ball locks before but found them with Google and they look great. I'll probably go shopping for those soon after I get my mind wrapped around this fixture design.

[Newbeeee™]

Good post this, as I was going through this very conundrum at the beginning of the year...

We're a 3 man shop with 9 cnc's (5VMC's, 2 cnc lathes + Prototrak Mill & Lathe).

I looked at a Matsuura 405 5 pallet (used one) thinking the very same, as well as an oposed spindle lathe etc.

Ultimately, we went the simple route. Bought another robodrill (to complement the existing) and another 2axis lathe (identical to the other to complement it).

We threw a load of money on holders, collets etc (which never came close to the cost of another machine), and did a bit of a 5S with things.

The VMC's already have a grid plate table, the 4th axis are on risers which are all matched (with tailstocks), and have dowels to the tables.

The 3x Chevalier VMC's have the grid shift set so all machines are identical, so a 4th can be put-up and the datums known (actually in the program via G10).

We have programmed deburr on the machine for ages - mastercam is really sweet at this with the ability to extend leadin and out, you can get to within a couple of thou of a sidewall.

So we get the machines running as much as poss, with them doing as much deburr as poss, for continuity of product + also to keep the manual labour down.

Ultimately we went this way (more like for like machines) so buttons are in the same place etc - ie familiarisation.

I'm happy that we did do it this way, as none of us have the experience of programming or using a hori, and I haven't had a full day off in 4+ months anyway, so didn't need anymore learning curve...

[Guest]

You'd be amazed how much force those hexagon clamps cam exert. On those occasions I need more, I can use the pirbull clamps. With those you have to be careful, you can exert enough force top bend you fixture.

 

Check out the force poundage that they can throw, you'll be quite surprised.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

You'd be amazed how much force those hexagon clamps cam exert. On those occasions I need more, I can use the pirbull clamps. With those you have to be careful, you can exert enough force top bend you fixture.

 

Check out the force poundage that they can throw, you'll be quite surprised.

 

Man, I LOVE to use Miteebites. They kick SERIOUS !!!

 

I have NEVER had a part come out using them. You can grip on less than .100" which comes in handy when you have planners with their heads in the sand thinking you don't need material to hang onto while machining. One time, I remember my material was only about .080" oversized from the finished part size ALL THE WAY AROUND!!!!! I was able to pull it off with the knife edge pitbull clamps. Can't say enough about them. Even the ones that are 1/2" wide work really well.

 

 

JM2CFWIW

[Wade@Odyssey]

Has anyone got a sketch or picture of one of these fixtures to be set up by the toolroom guy? The ball lock pallet swap setup makes perfect sense, and I can see how miteebites can increase density of parts if you've got a bunch to run. And I can see some advantage in being able to fixture parts on the side of a fixture as well as on top. But as for setting up a second and third op where the part isn't a nice neat rectangle anymore, and where it has to be held on finished surfaces, I'm not seeing how to get there. With the vise of course I know how to get where I need to be since I've been doing that for years. Thinking in a new direction may not be as easy as saying "work smarter" and suddenly doing that, heh. Forgive me for being obtuse but I still can't visualize how the miteebite setup can be as flexible as a vise.

 

edit ---> just downloaded the Miteebite catalog, I think I see some stuff in there. Still appreciate more input from you guys who have done this stuff though.

[left coast lefty]

Man, I LOVE to use Miteebites. They kick SERIOUS !!!

 

I have NEVER had a part come out using them. You can grip on less than .100" which comes in handy when you have planners with their heads in the sand thinking you don't need material to hang onto while machining. One time, I remember my material was only about .080" oversized from the finished part size ALL THE WAY AROUND!!!!! I was able to pull it off with the knife edge pitbull clamps. Can't say enough about them. Even the ones that are 1/2" wide work really well.

 

 

JM2CFWIW

 

+1000000

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Forgive me for being obtuse but I still can't visualize how the miteebite setup can be as flexible as a vise.

 

edit ---> just downloaded the Miteebite catalog, I think I see some stuff in there. Still appreciate more input from you guys who have done this stuff though.

You're not being obtuse at all. It's a different way of thinking when you use these as opposed to using a vise and unless you've seen them in action, it is a bit of a stretch to get the imagination wrapped around the idea. I'll see if I can put together some old stuff I can part with and not get in trouble for doing it later today or this evening so that you can begin to get the creatve juices going on workholding with them.

[GoetzInd]

Spindle probes are another biggie. They are worth their weight in gold.

 

James, I agree with you 100%. But i'm curious for what reasons you say this. Just wondering if they're the same as mine.

 

Mike

[taperlength]

My experience with having the same tools in the magazine all the time is, they all get dull, chipped or have their tool length offset changed. It may take longer, but new tools with every job makes better parts.

On a different note, tool breakage detection is essential.

[Joe788]

My experience with having the same tools in the magazine all the time is, they all get dull, chipped or have their tool length offset changed. It may take longer, but new tools with every job makes better parts.

On a different note, tool breakage detection is essential.

 

After spending years with 120 and 80 tool magazines, I'm starting to feel the same way. We still have repeat jobs that have all of the tools dedicated in the magazine, and it's pretty handy. But for scarcely repeating jobs, or job-shop work, I think anybody, including myself, would be money ahead to develop a very robust system for tool change out and presetting - and just get a smaller ATC.

 

The worst part of getting a new job in the door, is figuring out what tools I'm gonna remove from the magazine, logging which tools have come out, trying to remember to put them back in when that job repeats, etc.

 

You need to have either ALL of the tools for EVERY job in the magazine, or none of them. Anything in between is a total clusterxxxx. We have too many legacy repeat jobs right now to do anything about it on the current machines, but the next two pallet HMC or 5 axis VMC I buy, will have a modest tool magazine, and a presetter networked in.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Spindle probes are another biggie. They are worth their weight in gold.

James, I agree with you 100%. But i'm curious for what reasons you say this. Just wondering if they're the same as mine.

 

Mike

PIcking up actual work offsets (easy enough to have good rough number in the CAM system), adjusting wear comp for re-machining of OS/US features, auto coordinate rotation, automatic program seleaction based on material size, etc... ad infinitum.

 

@Joe and @Taper,

There is something besides keeping a large magazine full of tools. Maybe it's old had hat but it's worth mentioning IMHO... keep a tool library. Tool 1 is ALWAYS X, Tool 2 is ALWAYS Y, Tool 3 is ALWAYS Z. Most large tool magazines give the user the ability to assign tool numbers to pockets.

 

 

 

JM2CFWIW