Taking advantage of larger table

[Marshal]

We're thinking of adding a new machine to our small shop, and I'm curious how people take advantage of a larger table to improve productivity. We're essentially a prototype shop, and the vast majority of our work is smaller than 14"x14", and almost exclusively aluminum.

 

We've got a 6-year old Hurco VM1, which is a good size for almost everything we currently do. We're thinking of adding a Hurco VM20i to the mix and use it as more of a production machine, while the VM1 stays as the prototype/one-off machine.

 

So my question is, how do shops take advantage of a larger machine like that for the same size work?

[RaiderX]

Multiple setups, multiple parts and or dedicated fixturing. any combination will compliment your work flow.

 

Dumb question but has a Horizontal been considered? your size work would not require a large one but would open vast doors of possibility's.

[Marshal]

Multiple setups, multiple parts and or dedicated fixturing. any combination will compliment your work flow.

 

Dumb question but has a Horizontal been considered? your size work would not require a large one but would open vast doors of possibility's.

 

We haven't considered horizontals, no. It never even crossed my mind to look at them to be honest.

[Mr. M]

A 40x20 size machine could allow you two setups on the table at once and you could do a subplate and zero point system for your fixtures so they could be just popped into the machine.

[Marshal]

A 40x20 size machine could allow you two setups on the table at once and you could do a subplate and zero point system for your fixtures so they could be just popped into the machine.

 

I had thought about that, but then our old-timer machinist made me second guess myself. So the big savings is not having to break down the first one to set up the second one, right? We've only got a couple of things that take multiple setups, but I can definitely see that helping.

 

Another question, are spindle chillers worth it for a 10k spindle? We plan to get a speeder for when we've got to do intricate stuff where a higher RPM would help (more often than you'd think).

[specv]

Marshal, If you wan to come and look at our set-up on our Haas vf3 let me know. We have it set up with a pallet changer and it works very well.

[Guest]

At one point I had a 4th axis head, single vise work area and a Ball lock sub plate

 

Setup and flexibility was HUGE!!

[RaiderX]

I had thought about that, but then our old-timer machinist made me second guess myself. So the big savings is not having to break down the first one to set up the second one, right? We've only got a couple of things that take multiple setups, but I can definitely see that helping.

 

Another question, are spindle chillers worth it for a 10k spindle? We plan to get a speeder for when we've got to do intricate stuff where a higher RPM would help (more often than you'd think).

 

On single setup jobs one approach is setup one part, put it in for inspection etc. move on the the next part in the unused area of the machine and you can have multiple jobs ready to rock. this really pays when you have a lesser skilled shift to turn it over to.

if that approach fits your work. I would seriously consider horizontal. two pallets four sides each allows you to really stack the work in.

they aren't nearly as expensive as the old days.

[THEE THAINZ™]

+10 for the Ball Lock sub. I'm currently using a HAAS VF3 with a ball lock sub that has an square pattern that is off set so when you look at it appears as one ball lock on each corner of the square and one in the middle. Total ballocks on the plate 38 along with 90 - 1/2-13 threaded holes in the plate.

[Mr. M]

Yeah, having a vise, 4th, and then any custom fixtures on the plates make setups a breeze!

[GoetzInd]

A well setup HMC is the way to go IMO. Super flexable and you can always setup another part on another face WHILE it is running.

 

Mike

[Marshal]

A well setup HMC is the way to go IMO. Super flexable and you can always setup another part on another face WHILE it is running.

 

Mike

 

I think a horizontal would take up too much floor space. We moved into a new building recently and have way more space than we used to, but it's still a premium.

 

I do appreciate the input, especially with the ball lock stuff. That looks really neat, and I can see a few places in our operation that it'd come in handy.

[mkd]

I think a horizontal would take up too much floor space.

tlook at the newer traveling spindle Horiz'ls (spindle moves on x y). they would take less space than a palatized vertical and you would be able to hit a couple of side operations. If you don't seem to need it now, wait until you get the capability.....

[Guest]

I think a horizontal would take up too much floor space.

Not a Matsuura H.Plus-300 or a Kitamura HX-250. Those machines are only slightly larger than a 40x20 VMC with WAY more capability.

[specv]

http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/vmc-pallet-system-keep-work-flowing-

 

Marshal, Here is an article MMS did on our shop, as you know we have plenty of Horizontals but based on the stuff I know you guys do I think something like this would be a better option.

 

We put a grid pattern of bushings on the pallets so fixture set-up tear down is significantly reduced.

[Marshal]

I assume those horizontals are considerably more expensive? As in, over $100k.

 

A horizontal might be way more productive in the usual machine shop environment, but we're not a normal machine shop. We're more of a toolroom than anything. Nothing we do is high capacity, or even high demand. At least, not at the moment or in the foreseeable future. The couple of products we have had that were high demand it was simply more economical to have someone else make them. There's been times that the current mill doesn't even get turned on for a few days. Of course, there's also times that it should be running 24/7 too.

[Marshal]

http://www.mmsonline...p-work-flowing-

 

Marshal, Here is an article MMS did on our shop, as you know we have plenty of Horizontals but based on the stuff I know you guys do I think something like this would be a better option.

 

We put a grid pattern of bushings on the pallets so fixture set-up tear down is significantly reduced.

 

Thanks for the article Pete. Your shop was definitely awesome to see. I would love to put some sort of quick change system on the new mill, but that'll be a ways down the road I think. It certainly wouldn't be anything near what you have!

[Guest]

One of the HUGE misconceptions about HMC's is that they are only for high production. That is complete and utter :bs: . Because of typically high capacity tool carousels/magazines, that is one of the many things about them that allows for VERY quick changeovers.

[GoetzInd]

One of the HUGE misconceptions about HMC's is that they are only for high production. That is complete and utter :bs: . Because of typically high capacity tool carousels/magazines, that is one of the many things about them that allows for VERY quick changeovers.

 

+1000. The only reason I would have a VMC is for larger plate type work. 48x48 HMC's aint exactly cheap

 

Mike

[mx247]

4th axis on right side of the table and kurt vise on the left. I primarily do custom extrusion tips and dies to support our medical tubing divison so everything is one off and I often have to stop whatever I'm doing to do quick revisions.

[Sticky]

One of the HUGE misconceptions about HMC's is that they are only for high production. That is complete and utter :bs: . Because of typically high capacity tool carousels/magazines, that is one of the many things about them that allows for VERY quick changeovers.

 

We are an example of this. When we got our single hmc 27 pallet fms, we sold the two verticals we had. No verticals in our shop at all now. I much prefer running the horizontal over the verticals because most of my tools are always set and ready to go and I have quite a few different angle plates and tombstones to choose from to throw jobs on. The integral 4th is awesome too. Being able to setup a job while the spindle is working on another job is nice too, but we were already used to that from having a 2 pallet vertical.

 

We do mostly small lot repeat production, but recently started doing more tooling and non repeat work, and the horizontal is much faster to setup a job then the verticals for most things. But if you do work pieces that cover the entire table of a 40x20" VMC often the hmc will be too expensive to justify. For small parts I think HMC's are hard to beat.

[Sticky]

http://www.mmsonline...p-work-flowing-

 

Marshal, Here is an article MMS did on our shop, as you know we have plenty of Horizontals but based on the stuff I know you guys do I think something like this would be a better option.

 

We put a grid pattern of bushings on the pallets so fixture set-up tear down is significantly reduced.

 

I really like those two post style tombstones! Do you have any more pictures of those?

Very creative.

[specv]

I really like those two post style tombstones! Do you have any more pictures of those?

Very creative.

 

http://kgmfg.com/capabilities/

 

That is a better pic than on the MMS article

[Joe788]

I really like those two post style tombstones! Do you have any more pictures of those?

Very creative.

 

Dave, how did your home made aluminum tombstones turn out?

[Sticky]

Dave, how did your home made aluminum tombstones turn out?

 

Got too busy to finish them I am hoping to get back on them in a couple weeks, I am due for my annual machine squareness check so I will get that done first and then complete them. Right now I have 6 blocks that look like the attached model.

 

The bottom diameter is 12", the flats are 5" wide. I am thinking about permanently mounting 1" thick ground steel (type TBD?) to each face, and then figure out what type of mounting configuration to use from there. I have another tombstone where I can use 2x5x26" long strips on for making high density fixtures that just use two bullet dowels and liners for location and shcs for clamping for the entire strip. For these tombstones I want do something more like this steel tombstone so that not everything HAS to be in a strip.

 

Any ideas?