OT - Opinion or Fact

[McRae]

This is a question regarding how the other board members view posts by members on the board.

 

For example - when someone "Bashes" Haas or another manufacturer - do you think it is the persons opinion or are you influenced by statments made and would never ever buy a Haas based on that alone?

 

I would like to extend this to machines from international markets (ie Korea/China etc...) as I am interested in some of these machines and would appreciate the feedback and experience here before I make a decision...

[chris m]

In these matters I tend to view the opinions of others, ALL others (not just members of our august forum), as supplementary information to be compared against other data that I have collected in my own investigations.

 

Concrete data: 'I couldn't interpolate a circle better than .001 round with that machine', 'the control didn't ever seem to process blocks fast enough to keep up with my program', 'we machined 304SS all day in that machine for years with no probs'; etc, is obviously more useful than 'Fadals suck' or 'Matsuuras rock.'

 

just my opinion

 

C

[CNCGUY]

Sure it's their opinion and they are entitled to it.

 

Yes I could be influenced by these opinions. I would not make my decision based only on others opinions. However, they would definatley be a contriduting factor.

[mayday]

Andrew,

The only machine I will bash is one I have personally run. I stay open minded until I prove it otherwise. somtimes I see board members claiming theirs are the best. reminds me of grade school days, chevy verses ford, or remember this one (my dad can beat up your dad) . personal pride I guess

[Lathe-Mill]

The opinions come from personal experiences,if it was a good experience, good opinion, bad experience , bad opinion.

So, I think you count how many bad and how many good, ask the sales rep. as many questions you can, ask them if they have a show room, or like we did it here, the salesman took a few of us 3 people, boss,programer and operator to a shop where they own one already, we saw it, ask the people there a lot of questions, compare what we do with what they do,etc....then make a decision.

[Philcott]

Andrew,

 

It is like everything else. You have to weed out the bulls#!^ and absorbe the useful information.

I am influenced by the information on machines (and other topics here) that gets posted here and appreciate the willingness of others to share their experiences. Good, bad or indifferent.

 

Phil

[Rekd™]

Agreed on most accounts. If you see repeated bashing of something, there's a good chance that it's somewhat substantiated(sp). Try to see from as many different angles as possible.

 

'Rekd

[Harryman]

Opinion is a belief that is stated. The validity of the opinion is directly proportional to the level of expertise and honesty possessed by the one who states an opinion. When stated opinion is supported by proof, it is fact.

 

The opinions stated by members of this forum are generally supported with expertise, honesty and proof; all three elements are frequently challenged here, when one states an opinion that is light in some element.

 

Once posted, an opinion is available for challenge or support. Seems like a pretty solid system to me.

[Tony]

quote:

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(ie Korea/China etc...) as I am interested in some of these machines

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Hurco?

[Lathe-Mill]

also, what doesn't work for some people might work for others.

quote:

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For example - when someone "Bashes" Haas

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we have 3 okumas 2 haas, I personally have use hardinge,moriseiki,fadal,okuma and haas.. and believe it or not i prefer haas and hardinge, reliable when it comes to the control, "but" not to strong, okuma control suck but very strong, fadal control suck and week as hell.

Just my personal opnion.

I said before and i say it again, if you have the chance to see one running, go and see what it does, that will help you a lot, and try to run it like you would like to run it, if someone allows you to. worked for us.

[crazy^millman]

Well Andrew I have gone back and looked through alot fo your posts and can tell you are very sharp.

 

I can say I am one to Bash our machines and will keep doing that good bad or indifferent. I am sorry I feel that way but if you take a controller that is pretty much the same since 1979 and olny changed it a little here and there and you are taking 5 years to develope a Windows controller that will be my best best for our needs does not make me feel better. Then have it told to me that if I want to do highspeed machining at anything over 200 ipm for them is outragious you need to go to a completely different controller then that will infuence greatly how I feel about that machine. I have Ran Mazak, Okuma, Fadals, Haas, Sodiek Wire, Star Swiss Screw Machine, Maho, Hyundia with a Siemens controller, and a Thermwood 5 axis router so I base alot of my commnets off of my personal experience as well as trusted people in the profression of not only machining but service, Sales and Manufactruing in a whole. If I make a manufacture mad but what I say on here they maybe they will see the importacne and making a better machine verses something that they can just get out the door to make money on. I dont claim to be the smartest guy far from it but I also cant ingore 17 years of being around and doing this profession and that is what I base my comments and suggestions on.

 

Crazy Millman

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I pretty much concurr. I take what is said, weigh it against personal experience (if applicable) and with/against other data collection methods and make a recommendation for/against a particular product/issue.

 

The Chevy/Ford discussions are fun though and I enjoy that side of it.

 

I know I've personally bashed certain machines and those bashes are based on personal experience or the personal experiences of colleagues, students and or friends. From personal experience I've found Japanese machines to be superior to American machines overall. Long term reliability, "beefyness", accuracy/repeatability being the major factors for me.

 

Our company has bought a couple of new Haas VF2's. Overall I'm satisfied with the accuracy, repeatability, and service. (They're brand new, tight, and they've only been run by us programmers so they have not been crashed/abused so if there was best case type of situation to run in, this is it.) One of them has had to be serviced twice. The first time was due to installation procedure error. The second was an O-Ring related matter. They are a couple of months old. Sometimes if the tool has been run hard for a while (in either of them), it makes a LOUD thunk when the tool is changed (not very comforting if you ask me). The torque range is not that great. 1/2-13 Taps must be run over 600 RPM otherwise it will stall the machine.

 

Our Mori Seiki's on the other hand, have run trouble free since they were bought. The only time they have any issues is if "we" do something to them. Toolchanges are always smooth. Parts always match from one operation to the other. Service was so-so from our Mori Distributor until we informed them that we have spent over $3 million this year alone with them and we expect better service, and that if we do not get better service we will take our business elsewhere. They took notice and service has been outstanding lately. Pallet Pool systems usually have issues upon installation especially when new things are added to the machines. Anyone looking into buying one I would reccommend that you not get the Magazine type of tool breakage detection. It's not a stable system overall and I am quite disoppointed with the performance and repeatability of it. The In Machine tool breakage/measurement system is by far a superior setup/system.

 

Our Cincinnati's; two words - BOAT ANCHOR! None of them will cut a round (within .003) hole at faster than 25-30 IPM. Mori's on the other hand will do it 4-5x faster (depending on the size of course). Haas will do it at 2x depending on diameter of course. The Cinci Control (Acramatic A2100) is a POS that crashes (waddya expect from a PC in a shop floor environment).

 

Those are my takes and I'm sticking to them.

[chris m]

quote:

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okuma controls suck

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Huh?!?

 

I would say this is probably the kind of stuff you're asking about, Andrew. I personally think that the Okuma E100L is the best lathe control I've ever seen and even the older controls we have on both lathes and VMCs are very flexible and very programmer- and operator-friendly; much more so than our Fanuc controls. Hell, even the Yasnac MX3 circa 1990 is far superior to the newest Fanuc for ease-of-programming. How's that for an opinion, all the Fanuc guys are saying "WTF is he talking about? I don't like canned hole patterns anyway..."

 

My man Carlos, obviously, disagrees with my glowing assesment of Okuma. I will agree with him, however, that Fadal controls really do suck

 

C

[SledGeek]

I beleive all toolroom equpment are both user and job specific.Therefore without knowing the application or background of the machine and programmer/operator, it can only be opinion.

 

There are way too many different application in this trade for any machine tool builder to get every detail perfect for every circumstance. Not to mention the costs involved in attempting to do so.Sure would be cool to have on though

The most important feature of this site, IMHO,is the wealth of skill and experiences that help us all to make more informed decisions.I think the opinions on this sight are more reality than any salesman/manufacturer could ever give you.

Iv'e seen some real wizards(no pun intended Murlin) make some good coin on a pos machine and some inexperienced people make a new Haas look like sh!t.We have Haas VF6 and Quantam Q1250V, both serve their purpose . Personally i dont like the toolchanger on either and the 1250 is lucky to hold .001 on interpolating any hole !

 

I think the most important part of buying is knowing what your needs(present and future)are and which machine fits you're application best.

Personally I think it takes longer to buy a new piece of equipment than it does to buy a house.

 

Our personal favorite seems to be the Makino V-55 which we have yet to purchase, of course.

 

BTW good luck Andrew !

 

[ 10-10-2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Midnite_Oil ]

[Scott Bond]

Hi Andrew

I am always entertained by the other board members views,and the posts of their personal experience's.

This year I bought a bridge Machine from Mighty,with a model name The Viper..

In the thread ""O/T new bridge machine ""

This Fanuc controlled machine got bashed.

I took it all in , weighed all options, and

Bought the Viper for "project specific reasons" , and I am happy with it.

And I will seek Forum knowledge(and hopefully wisdom) on my next purchase.

Scott teh' I use the forum like a giant "8 ball".

 

[ 10-10-2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bond ]

[Lathe-Mill]

quote:

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My man Carlos, obviously, disagrees with my glowing assesment of Okuma. I will agree with him, however, that Fadal controls really do suck

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LOL..

 

Like i said, personal experiences and here most ppl dont like the okuma control, to many steps to get from point a to point b, time consuming control.

You are right when You say friendly, if you program at the control wich is conversational.

if you know prototrak you can do an okuma control, other than that the okuma machine has some big balls.