O/T Idiot Proofing.....

[biss03]

Is anyone using technology that prevents the machine from being unclamped unless the machine has cycled and an M30 has been "read"? we are already using a pressure switch tied into the cycle start button that prevents the machine from being cycled while unclamped. now we want to prevent the clamps from unclamping unless the M30 has ran.

 

long story short...we think we have a problem were the machines are being "started" but they are not actually cycling and when the operator comes back to that machine to load it, they don't realize that the parts are not ran (we do very little machining on the parts but still inexcuseable i know) and pack them in the done boxes. we also do a secondary sorting operation on these parts and the parts still are getting thru to the customer so my personal opinion is that something else is going on but we want to eliminate all potential issues causing this.

[Brendan P]

I don't have your answer,but I know one thing for sure after being on the floor for 17 years.

You can't idiot proof anything!

 

Somehow,a smarter idiot always comes along.

[Tim Johnson]

Biss,

You will have to call your machine tool distributor and they will probably have to call the control people but it should be easy for them to do it. We had to go through this to put spindle timers on our machines.

[iowajim62]

biss03,

 

quote:

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they don't realize that the parts are not ran

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Operator training helps only so much I guess

 

How about a touch probe checking for finished features ?

 

Or how about in-process/end-process inpsection sheets/check fixtures ?

 

HTH

[jeff]

quote:

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You can't idiot proof anything! [bonk!]

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Ain't that the truth!!!!

[Teh Bear without Brains kinda idiot]

The more protection you make ,more vulnerable and not stable you machine became .

I never add protection over the machine -bulder instLLED ONE .

I once worked with some operator that was so unpredictable ,you never know what crazy way he would go (BTW ,he was really nice guy outside of the shop ) .

 

HTH

Winnie teh I am always cautious

[biss03]

we use in-process check sheets as well as final inspection sheets before shipping them. we 100% inspect every layer of every box before it is shipped with 2 people looking at the parts in each layer before proceeding to the next layer and somehow they still get raw parts thru.

 

 

and yes, i would agree with buckethead. no matter how hard you try to idiot proof something, a smarter idiot comes along.

[specv]

biss,

Do you have macro capabilities on your machine?

We do checks all the time with them. To make sure machine settings are right, to make sure an operation is done before it goes to the next. Let me know what you want to do

[Diablo God]

The more you idiot proof, the more idiots you find

 

Jim

[biss03]

Pete.... we are using Haas VF3's and i believe they do have macro capabilities. Is this the kind of stuff your company does or do you know of someone with this capability to help us out.

[specv]

We do this on our machines,

If a program is started you can write to a macro say #650. i will give you an example for a fanuc control:

 

O1234(MAIN PROGRAM)

IF[#650 EQ 0]GOTO1

IF[#650 EQ 1]GOTO9999

N1(MAIN BODY OF PROGRAM)

N2#650=1

N3

N4

N5

N6

#650=0

M30

N9999 #3000=1(PROGRAM NOT FINISHED)

 

This might not work the same as a fanuc control as far as the alarm statement but im sure you can write alarms for a haas control.

[biss03]

this is close but what happens if the button is never pushed yet they come back and unload the parts. we're trying to tie into the hydraulic clamping so that once the parts are clamped they cannot be unclamped unless an M30 is read in the program. is there anyway to have a macro check and see if something is done before allowing the clamp to unclamp. or better yet, have the program unclamp the parts for you at an M30. that way if the operator opens the door and sees the parts unclamped,they know it has been ran.

 

 

thanks for the input,please keep it coming. it is very much appreciated and helpful.

[specv]

I see

I thought you were starting the program and not finishing it.

Well this is more of a hard wired alarm issue. The hydraulic switches could easily be tied to the machine, for safety reasons you would not want to clamp or unclamp with the machine, but you could check a switch with a macro.

[mayday]

biss, does your machine have an auxilary Mcode output port? if so you can send a signal from your prg with a custom M code that will trigger your clamps. our Mazaks have it and I think a Fanuc will do it also but may need a add on I/O board for it. we do it with our Haas indexer and trunion table

[iowajim62]

biss03,

lotta good ideas came up for ya but i have to say

 

quote:

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we use in-process check sheets as well as final inspection sheets before shipping them. we 100% inspect every layer of every box before it is shipped with 2 people looking at the parts in each layer before proceeding to the next layer and somehow they still get raw parts thru

---

you need to replace those idiots

man all those things you have goin on like the 100% inspection tells me after 20+ years in the trade that those folks have to go

dont wanna sound mean or harsh but geez that is absolutely pathetic that 2 people gettin paid to do absolutely nothing but stand there and not do their job is just stupid on the company's part to even have those people come to work let alone get paid

 

Hope you guys don't do any Aircraft work.

 

sorry for the rant but I have an extremely high intolerance for incompetence

[chris m]

I gotta say that I'm with Jim on this one...

 

quote:

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this is close but what happens if the button is never pushed yet they come back and unload the parts

---

Why don't you just drop-ship the raw material directly to the customer and call it a day..?

 

Sorry but I'd say that lessening operator responsibility will only lead to even dumber mistakes down the road

 

C

[biss03]

i agree with both jim and chris. part of the problem is we are unable to narrow it down to a specific operator at the machine (the ones we have caught are gone). once the parts leave the shop, the tracebility is gone (tracking was set up by customer and won't allow us to change it). we've tried people straight off the street to guys that have been with us for 5 years and even had the quality manager all sort before shipping and still get the problem sporadically. this is why i believe some tomfoolery is going on. lets just say things aren't exactly cozy with our customer due to problems with payment for things on another part for them. they would have pulled the job relating to this thread but the end user is so happy with the product we are making (3 other machined shops couldn't accomplish it) that they won't allow our customer to pull out from us. i don't really get too involved with this end of it but i hear bits and pieces.

 

i've given them my .02 on why parts are still getting out. when they 100% inspect them at final audit, they visually look at every part in a layer. then they lift the entire layer at once and transfer to another box and repeat process for each layer. this is where i believe the chance for error comes in. the machining is relatively simple and doesn't require a lot of machining. when you look at layer after layer, eventually the parts blend together and could easily miss one. i believe the only way to ensure that each and every part is being looked at is to pull the parts one by one and inspect before transferring to another box. but management doesn't agree with me on this apparently because it will take too long.

 

please keep the comments and suggestions coming. eventually i will print this entire thread and hand it to the QC manager. maybe hearing this stuff from professionals in the industry will change their thinking.

[Teh Bear without Brains kinda idiot]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

+1000 to Mayday

biss, does your machine have an auxilary Mcode output port?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stiil exists possibility to unclamp at operator wish ,if he is enough intelligent (through MDI )

and what happens if someone will input this code at the middle of the program ?

Also :

I would put this code at the end subroutine

In my mashine If I would wish ,yet I do not wish to deal with this sort of things al all I call it END on my Sinumeric

For fanuc you can call it

O9999 or anything else

 

G91 G0 g28 Z0.

G91 G0 G28 X0. Y0.

G90

M5

M9

M*** your code for unclamp

M17 (return to the main program on my Sinumeric ,forgot how it is on fanuc M99 sorta ?)

 

HTH

WTHH

 

I do not understand an attitude ,you better make your operators more responsible and transform them from "apes " to real Human Beings(Homo sapiens) with full responsibilities .

No idiot proof will work when your are dealing with "me not matters " attitude .

 

PS:

code:

---

 Ho-mo sa-pi-ens (hoh'moh say'pee uhnz)  n. 

1. (italics) the species of bipedal primates

to which modern humans belong,

characterized by a brain capacity

averaging 1400 cc (85 cu. in.) and by

dependence upon language and the

creation and utilization of complex tools.

2. HUMANKIND.

[1795-1805; < NL = HOMO + L sapiens wise, rational

(see SAPIENT)]

---

code:

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 id-i-ot (id'ee uht)  n. 

1. an utterly stupid or foolish person.

2. a person of the lowest order in a former

classification of mental retardation,

having a mental age of less than three

years and an intelligence quotient under

25.

[1250-1300; ME < L idiota < Gk idi_tes private

person, layman, person lacking skill = idio- (var.

of idio- IDIO -) + -tes agent n. suffix]

---

Winnie teh responsible 4 All .

[Brendan P]

quote:

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this is close but what happens if the button is never pushed yet they come back and unload the parts.

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Fire them!

 

I'm not trying to be funny here,but what teh hell are these guys getting paid for.

I say this respectfully,but it is sad that you have to spend money or time to retrofit the machine or control to keep this from happening.

 

In our production shop,the biggest problem that I see is the same guys run the same machine and parts all day/everyday.

This is bad because after a while,they (the so called machinists) run on "automatic mode" and this is where a lot of mistakes happen.

 

The one thing I can't tolorate is lack of paying attention and not taking any pride in your work.

Ooh yea,and lazyness.

 

For some strange reason,these 3 things breed strongly in machine shops.

 

Bucket teh: No one would wanna work for me.

[Teh Bear without Brains kinda idiot]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No one would wanna work for me

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

+1000 Me 2 !

[Teh Bear without Brains kinda idiot]

~~~~~~~~~~~

Fire them!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And hire some immigrants (sorry for offence ,if any )

They generally more responsible (the need to survive makes them so )

That`s why here most Cnc Machinists and programmers speak Russian ( I ya toje ) LOL

Winnie teh Pora idty domoy !

[Tim Johnson]

How about assigning the operators to as many machines as one can run, give them a personalized rubber stamping devise that can add up identification numbers. They must stamp around the machined area which shows the parts were visually checked and by whom. Have them write on a log sheet the ID numbers they ran that shift. When the box is full have them wrap the boxes and sign the wrapping and fire the inspectors. The money saved on the inspection labor would easily pay for the extra work the operators would be doing. If there are unrun parts in the boxes you know who ran them.

[Brendan P]

quote:

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And hire some immigrants

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I totally agree on this!

Just last week I begged my boss to hire a bunch more of the "Africans",and I told him I would train them all on the machines,and then we could get rid of the loosers who expect to get paid for doing nothing all day.

 

I'm not kidding.

We had a temp from Africa,he started sweeping and painting 3 years ago.

They finially hired him full time,he now runs machines and is happy just to have a job here in America.

 

These are the kind of people I would replace the lazy a$$es with in a minute.

[biss03]

bucket and winnie... your responses are great in theory. but if we fire everyone who has done something wrong, i'd be the only one left!

seriously though, we've done that and all we seem to get are more of the same. suprising really, with the number of jobs leaving michigan that we can't find good operators - oh wait, that's the problem. these people want to be paid as machinists. problem is they are nothing more than operators here because we are a production machine shop. we don't have a need for 30-40 machinists. so basically the ones with brains want more money and the ones without don't want to learn (or maybe aren't capable). i actually am agreeing with you guys on this. (and by the way, one of the operators on that job is in fact an immigrant so maybe they lose that will to work by the time they get this far north. actually he is a good worker and i doubt it is him but he is on 3rd shift and i know i had my nights were it was tough staying awake).

 

as far as the operators stamping around the machined features, this is a good idea but the operators barely have time to pack the parts before the machine is done running - literally. for example, it was taking too long to blow the chips off the parts so we strategically placed coolant lines around the spindle to wash out the chips from the parts as they run. so all they have to do is unload the parts and put in the basket.

 

i know you are all trying to help, and i do appreciate it. in fact your reasserting what i've been saying all along. please keep the thoughts coming.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

The overwhelming percentage of our Operators and Setup people are immigrants. Some are grateful for a job and some just show up to get a paycheck. Most speak VERY LITTLE english. I've talked with some of them and they express their dissatisfaction with the level of pay etc.. I tell them that unless they go to school to learn english and actually speak it their options are few for making good money. Some have expressed interest in being programmers... gotta go to school I tell them. "Yeah, yeah, I know, I know..." is the reply. School, school, school...