Ampco18 vs 6061maching time

[J Coulston]

Hello all, a customer of mine wants me to give a machining cost differetial between machining a part out 6061 vs Ampco18. The customer will be suppling material so that is not a factor.

 

If it will cost X out of aluminum will it cost 2X ,3X out of Ampco18?

 

Thank you for your input,

[SledGeek]

EEEk. To many variables involved in that one. If it was 60 series to 70 series al. or ampco 18 to ampco 21 ya might have a comparison.

 

It would be safe to assume your tooling costs will also go up with ampco if it's a production run.Of course the geometry of the part is critical in quoting ampco....toolpaths must be tailored to accomodate brittleness and chipping when miiling.Also material tends to close up on drills, taps , and reamers. Sharpen drills slightly off center and use expandle reamers, if possible,to reduce drag on flutes. Negative rakes work well on ampco.Personally, i would rather bore it or interpolate it. Seems easier to "scrape" it off than digging into it.

 

my .02,

Good luck

[J Coulston]

Thanks for the reply. I am just going to give my customer a WAG (wild as guess).

 

Thanks again,

[SledGeek]

BTW

 

"CNC Software discourages any discussion of pricing over the Internet, and we will respect their wishes on this forum. Around the globe product prices may fluctuate for various reasons including but not limited to economic conditions, varying service structures, international translation costs, and distribution costs."

 

This may explain lack of interest in the post....

 

FYI

 

[Chris Rizzo]

Midnite, I think CNC was refering to discussing the prices of Mastercam software, not general shop stuff.

 

Since were on an aluminum topic here, ever hear of 6013 "power plate"? I guess it's a proprietary product of copper and brass sales. Similar mechanical properties to 6061, but machines a whole lot better. Faster feeds, smaller chiping, less burrs, etc. So that's what the literature says...anyhow, I ordered a few chunks to try some mold work that just came in. The customer was using 6061 , but said he was open to trying 6013, due to the thermal simlarites.

[SledGeek]

quote:

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Midnite, I think CNC was refering to discussing the prices of Mastercam software, not general shop stuff.

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Never even thought of it that way . Damn, ive been playing by rules that don't exist. i hate that......

 

 

We use something called tooling plate that comes in plate and block form.I think it's 6061 processed a little differently.Don't know for sure. Easy maching and comes in "flat" . No dips and surface irregularities. I'm not sure of thermal properties though.

Let me know what you find out .

[Jack Mitchell]

Hey John,

 

I cut aluminum bronze all day and every day up here. I would attack this cost differance at a 4:1 margin because ampco 18 will give a pretty good fight. If the customer wanted ampco 21 then I would cost this out at a 6:1 margin.

 

I cannot imagine why such dissimilar materials are being considered by your customer but I would talk him out of the ampco quite handily.

 

Your tooling costs will double with the 18 and triple with the 21. The machining time will as well.

 

Midnight Oil seems to have a fairly good handle on this topic as well.

 

Regards, Jack

[J Coulston]

Thanks Jack that was what I was looking for.

 

Midnite, I agree with you that we should not discuss MasterCAM pricing per the FAQ and as a courtesy to the gracious host we have here. But as an industry we should discuss pricing more, a lot more. I have seen to many times where I know a shop is losing money on a job. Are they doing it to stay busy, do they like working for free?

 

Here is a perfect example of what happened to me a few months ago. I quoted 10 large racks 6' long by 5' tall, made from 2x2 steel box. Each rack had close to 800 25/64 holes drilled thru the box tubing and then was welded together. The rack had to be painted with a special 2 part epoxy paint.

 

I ran assembly thru JobBoss, I had a couple of quotes for material, entered in all the hardware, ran a short program on a machine to get a very accurate cycle time for drilling. Come up with a price that I feel good about. I submitted the quote for a little over $12,000. I followed up with the engineer that was running this project he told me that I was cheaper by a little over $100 and had a week earlier delivery than the other quote he had. The engineer called me a few days latter and told me the he received his third quote. He said are you ready for this? The third quote was for $6800. I have machined parts for this engineer for ten years and he has brought me along when he has transferred jobs, so I know this is no BS. WTF 56% less when myself and another shops quote within 1%. I had $5300 in material cost in the quote, that variable was pretty much set by the specifications on the prints. The shop that won the job either missed something or just need some busy work. I don’t know. The only thing I do know is they didn’t make very much money for the amount of energy they expended.

[SledGeek]

quote:

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But as an industry we should discuss pricing more, a lot more.

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I agree 100% John. In fact , the only reason i was reminded of that FAQ was cause i accidentally clicked on it and decided to read all of them again.....

 

The only upside to that scenario ,that i have seen in the past,is that those companies don't usually last to remain a viable source of competition . Unfortunately , there are few times when it's good to lose any bid.

 

Good luck on your al./brass quote.

[Hardmill]

quote:

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Never even thought of it that way . Damn, ive been playing by rules that don't exist. i hate that......

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LOL

Thats comedy

 

Your awesome midnight. Thought those were the rules

and ready to fight for them

 

 

 

PEACE

[chip]

quote:

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Ampco18

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I have never heard ampco18. I've run al/Bronze, Al/Nichol/Bronze, etc. What is Ampco18-21?

[resjun]

http://www.bearingbronze.com/Home.shtml

[J Coulston]

Ampco 18 info

[chip]

Thanx fellas

[jeff]

Ampco18.....

Not fun to machine.

yukky poo poo!

[SledGeek]

Hey Jeff, we're practically neighbors ! Don't think I noticed that before. I'm at M21/Lake George area.

 

Your right, Ampco 18 sucks and 21 is worse.