VMC winner... is

[Tony]

The P.O. finally was signed today.

The Fadal people bent over backward's for are purchasing agent.(That's what determines what we get) $10,000 off list,60 day's until payment,The better controller with Gi**'s solid's 21/2 D Cam,big memory."Free" also

Thrown in,The faster toolchange,and the graphite package too. $3,000 worth of tooling,and the tool Height stuff,(Not the Lazer).

Here is some "Lurker" stats on my "Which VMC" post:

# Hits KBytes URL

1 194 26.36% 2303 52.87% /model.jpg

 

US Military

US Government

vpn.mazakcorp.com

0.0.0.0 (hmmm always a few of you)!

saralee.net

navo.navy.mil

ugs.com

ugsolutions.com

milltronics.com

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: Tony ]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

You can say the Gibbs word in here. Webby'll just bombard your e-mail box with spam. j/k

You'll find though, that if you have ever put your hands on a CAD system, you won't like Gibbs. They do not do things the "CAD" way. Actually I tried it a few times but I gotta tell you, it(GibbSCAM) made me feel like a complete moron. I couldn't get it to do anything. Other CAD/CAM Systems I've been at least able to figure out, not necessariliy be proficient but I was able to get code. Not GibbSCAM though.

Do they expect you to use Gibbs? If so, I feel bad for you and I'll leave it at that.

Sounds like Fadal DID NOT want to loose a sale or the Machine Tool Market is so slow that they are selling at signifigantly lower margins. Another thing I am seeing more now are "Turnkeys". Meaning that you (the potential customer) have a part in mind, you get the Machine Tool Dealers to program, fixture and tool it as part of the purchase agreement. Not a bad way to keep the AE's on their toes.

Rambling on..........

[Tony]

James

They do not expect me to use Gibb's they are just trying to Get everything they possiably can for nothing.The verify will be nice on the controller if I change something on the fly.

BUT WAIT...I found out today they only gave the fadal guy a "verbal" we will buy it,We will do the paperwork monday...

Ahhhh Hurco's V.P.has ok'ed

too sweeten his deal somemore...

Our owner thinks it's funny beating people up

He call's it a "Hog pile" when Machinery builder's are fighting it out.

Oh well as long as my check still clear's!

[mcrae_andrew]

Sales is a tough racket - One of the earliest quotes someone once said to me is "All Buyers are Liars..." Sometimes an account just isn't worth getting involved with.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Sales is a tough position to be in. It's even worse when you have a more technical mind and thinking. Gimme Mastercam tech support(and a decent paycheck) and I'm a happy guy, just keep me away from sales. Ack!!!!!!

Builders will duke it out on occasion. Just make sure that your purchasing agent doesn't take it too far because Builders might tire of the game and say to themselves "Some sales are just not worth making", then you'll be out in the cold without a deal.

[Charles Davis]

Beware the profitless prosperity.

[Rekd™]

As long as we're on the subject of Gibbs... I'll give my 2 cents.

I learned on Virtual Gibbs. Great package to learn on if you've never done it. Then I moved to GibbsNC, (backstep?). More powerful, but clunky. Then on to Mastercam and WOW, so THIS is what CAM is all about eh?

After 6 or 7 years of CAM, I still prefer Mastercam over GibbsNC, Virtual Gibbs, Surfcam, Geopath, EZMill, BobCAD and a few others I've used.

Once again; Kudos to the boys at CNC Software!

[Tony]

I just tried Gibb's yesterday..

Like you said "Clunky" thats even what the applications eng. called it!Also isn't it strange how they also use the command "DO IT"

The Fadal was a let down for me yesterday..

Made in America but really a bunch of sheet metal,three servo's,three drive cards,and As far as I am concerned a controller that is a Step backward's in technology.And it's best surface finish...Break out the Scotchbrite...

I'm off to Hurco in indianapolis IN.

Seeing is believing...

[cadcam]

Somebody sound disappointed.

Sorry Tony.

There really not that bad of a machine just like every thing there is better out there.

[Bob]

Did you say Hurco? Good Luck

[Tony]

Bob

The full blown Machining center not the Hawk series......?There sales pitch We put the "C" in c.n.c. Before us it was an n.c. machine.

And get this! The vp of sales say's "Hey if you don't like this machine,For any reason we will take it Back Put that on the P.O."

Dude, that alone Warrants a trip To there head quarters in Indiana.

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Tony ]

[Rekd™]

Not to beat a dead horse, but as I said, the Fadal is probably one of the last CNC's you'd want to buy for surfacing, unless you don't mind running at 6.75 IPM...

[Kenneth Potter]

Smack a fadal spindal just ever so slightly & its out of alignment. Slow rapids ,Tool changer has its problems.

Gheech what a drag!

[Mark Mossberg]

I have both a 2000 Hurco with Ultimax control, and a 1998 Fadal 32MP. The Fadal will machine circles around the Hurco. Whoever it was, in this thread, that said Fadal is no good for surfacing doesn't know what he's talking about. 6 ipm !! gimmie a break. I can surface at hundreds of ipm, with the Fadal, and rapid at a thousand.

The Hurco is a nice machine but the Ultimax control is very quirky. You can't run G18-G19 arc moves in a surfacing path on the Ultimax. It reverses some of them and dives through the part. Also, it just doesn't fell as solid as the Fadal. The jog is mushy and over runs when you stop, the list goes on.

[Trevor Bailey]

Mark,

What material are you cutting that you can feed at 100 ipm on a FADAL. For roughing, I can see that feed in most soft materials with HSS & carbide inserted tooling.

I have ran Hurcos before, and I am running FADAL's again now. All I do is 3d work, and I must say that there is no way my FADAL's can handle that kind of feed/speed and give you an acceptable finish. Even FADAL's that I have ran in the past basically would give me a mediocore or sub-par finsih. This is with accel/deccel set.

Once again, just my opinion.

Trevor Bailey

[Rekd™]

I was being sarcastic about the 6 IPM on the Fadal. You can actually go 2 or 3 times faster than that when doing sharp angles, close tolerances, fine surfaces and the likes!

I've surfaced intricate parts with tight tolerance/surface finish call-outs and sharp angles on Fadal, Haas, Milltronics, Boston Digital and a retro-fit Bridgeport. The only machine the Fadal beat was, you guessed it, the Bridgeport!

I hate to say it, but even the Milltronics beat it!! And we all know how I feel about mIllcronics..

Besides, attaining accuracy of .0002 with quality surface finish on ANY of the 'low cost' machines is next to impossible at high feeds. At least the Haas can adjust the programmed feeds at corners using G187 E.0002. (E.0002 being the tolerance you want the machine to try to hold. Last I heard, Fadal didn't do anything like that.

The only machine I've run, (of the ones listed above), that's capable of running into the hundreds of IPM for surfacing these kinds of parts is the Boston Digital. And it slows down to as much as 50 to 75 IPM to do it! (That's what a 1/4 million dollar machine will do for you though.) The Fadal will overshoot a corner, and then gouge the next surface trying to recover! (That is, if it doesn't alarm from servo lag..)

BTW, If your Hurco is freaking out on those arcs, you might want to check for some kind of Arc Assist parameter. The Milltronics did the same thing, and on some G18/G19 arcs would think you wanted it to go the 'other way' and change it for you!! Call your Hurco rep, they may have a fix for it.

BTW Multax, this post is based on my own personal experience. It's not my opinion, it's what I've learned hands on in the real world, making real parts for real customers. And I really enjoyed reading your philosiphy. That thought applies to just about everything in life. Kudos to you!

-Rekd

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Rekd ]

[Finecut]

We run two Hurcos at work. A 1987 and a 1997 model. The old one with a updated control (max 32 )is ok for 2d work and loose tol. It cant turn a square corner past 8 ipm !!

The newer one, with the 3d option (what a joke)can't handle any 3d work,(thats 3 axis moving at the same time), PERIOD. Thats nc or converational. I was told by the very pushy salesman that they could put the high speed option in the control ( wouldn't give a price )and it would do surface work.Right!

All I can say is the 3d option ( or mold package as they call it now ) is nothing more then a 2d path rotated and/or translated along 2 axis. That is not 3d ! It somewhat equals a g18 or g19 move

Mark Mossberg,

Go into the hurco post and turn the g18 switch to 1. That will stop those stupid xz moves when you filter a toolpath. G18 is backwards on the Hurco.

Sorry, Iam not a Hurco fan

Finecut

[Gary]

need a mazak and they ain't that much more.

i used to get to play with them now its dynapath. but they do the job.

[tirenut]

I will agree that Fadals are not your surface machine of choice. I too speak from experience, having 6 of them rangine from VMC15's to 6030's in our company. 100's of ipm on a fadal is almost laughable, unless the surface you are cutting is also a flat face (ie - straight line!)in which case, I hardly call it "surface machining". Mark, have you ever checked your servo cycle time on that control? Run the numbers and you will see that you cannot hold any tight tolerance on that machine while doing true high speed multisurface cutting.

Surface machine of choice? For me, it's my new toy - A Hermle C800U. This thing is a rock, literally, the whole machine is one giant chunk of mineral particulate - no cast iron assemblies here. The Siemens digital drives, heidi glass scales, and Heidenhain TNC430 (very good servo cycle times), and 2 Gig of onboard program storage work very well for high speed surface machining. It is specific built for high speed machining of hard materials and it does very well. The HSK spindle is a thing of beauty, it cuts like you wouldn't believe. But, I am not nieve enough to think that this is the best machine out there, and I won't get on my soapbox to preach that everyone should have one.

Many people don't know what a good machine is, because to them it is whatever the best machine they have in their shop is. If you were used to using old Cinci's or Hurcos and then bought a shiny new fadal, guess what? That Fadal is the best machine on earth to you and probably the next best thing to sliced bread. There is nothing wrong with this, but also take note that there others out there who have truly been "machine shopping" and seen all of what is offered. It's incredible what you can buy to help you do your job nowaday's.

Different applications require much different equipment and the worst thing to do is buy overkill. The key to a succesful business is to find a good Price Vs. Performance ratio for what you are trying to accomplish. Why buy a 30hp, glass scale, linear motor, HSK spindle, surfacing machine when you are drilling holes and cutting 2d contours, or even cutting simple single surfaces? Everyone in our line of work wants to run the trickest machine out there, but in reality if it isn't necessary, why waste your companies money? Find a reputable distributor that you are comfortable dealing with, put their applications engineers through their paces and run some of YOUR parts to truly get a feel for what you are buying.

Just my 2 cents, although I probably got up to a dollar on that one. Happy cutting everyone - keep it up, we are a dying breed!

[Matt Niadna]

Last place I worked we had a Roeders RFM 600 and a RFM 760. Talk about nice machines......How about a 42000rpm Fischer HSK spindle. 1,100ipm feed, 10,000 block look ahead, Laser tool setter, touch probe, 10gig hard drive with a dual processor Win/NT controller and a 10/100 Base-T LAN connection. The best 3D surfacing machine I've ever used. Very limited flat endmill use and no drilling. It could leave some increadible finishes on hard steel though. More time was usually spent in Mastercams toolpath calculation time than in the machine run time. You know that when you have to lock the doors before you can fire the spindle up.....Your in for some serious metal removal. Oh yeah, those doors have double pane safety glass in them also.

[Trevor Bailey]

Tirenut & Matt,

Do both you guys have info on those machines that you could e-mail me? Perhaps a links or even your sales rep.

Thank you,

Trevor Bailey

[Claus@Cimco]

Hi

It looks like you guys need some linkes to some REAL cncmachines from over the pond

 

Roeders http://www.roeders.de/hsc/e_frameset.htm

OPS http://www.ops-gmbh.com

Digma http://www.digma.de/

 

Hermle http://www.hermle.de/index_e.htm

Mikron http://www.mikron-ac.com

Deckel/Maho http://www.gildemeister.com/fr_en.asp

 

Claus@cimco

[Tony]

Thank you For the Hurco G18/G19 info.

I would have never know about it.

I just got off the phone With them and

they said "We know we have a problem with the G18/G19 We have a new version of are software

2.2(?)coming out in a couple of month's and it might even be fixed "!!

So I am not supposed to bring any true 3D work with me on Thursday it will choke....

So Why am I flying down there?.......

[mikee]

Tony

Just change the swg18 switch in the post for the hurco. The post works but it does need updating for the newer control.

If you do run a 3d part I would like to hear just how good it turns out.( along with the machine model and what surface options are installed ,like mold pkg ?)

Seeing is beliving, and saleman talk is BS

 

mikee

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

---

I just got off the phone With them and they said "We know we have a problem with the G18/G19 We have a new version of are software 2.2(?)coming out in a couple of month's and it might even be fixed "!!

---

Does this statement strike fear into anyones heart? It does with me.

Here's some other linkt to real machine tools

Makino

Yasda

Mori Seiki

Kitamura

They are expensive but well worth their money in performance, LONGEVITY!!!!!!!!!!, precision and accuracy.

JM2C again!