A question of growth

[Thee Dragracer1951]

We're just a little tiny shop. But we're growing. American Machinist voted us one of the top ten shops in America last year. That has brought a lot of new business our way. Because of that, we just bought an Akira Seiki 4020 VMC with a fourth. That has led to our needing a larger building so I'm moving to 6k ft. in the next couple of weeks.

I've been bidding more and more aerospace work. about $700k last week. If my track record of 60% success holds true we'll be busy. I've also bid about $1.5m marine work. Mostly heat exchangers and associated turned and milled work. All of that can be done on a Horizontal and a live tooled twin spindle. The aerospace work is going to require a 5x.

Our normal work load will support these three machines.

My question, is what machines? I've always liked Mori's and matsuuras. A friend asked me today if I had considered a Mazak. I've never liked the control but the iron is awesome. Now, I don't have to run them...and I could maybe get the Mazak folks and the Mori folks into a bidding war over three high end machines. This is the biggest purchase we've ever made. Just the aluminum chips will recycle for over $100k a year.

So, I guess I'm asking for pros and cons of machines. I am not sure if the 5x needs to be a vert or a horiz yet. The work I've been bidding is in the 35 or 38" by 16 or 18" by about 4" range, so I'm guessing it'll be a vert with a neutating head...

Whaddya think?

[Colin Gilchrist]

Jim,

 

I would seriously consider making one of those machines a multi-tasking machine like the Mazak Integrex or an Index lathe. As for Horizontals and 5 axis machines I've got a few ideas as well. Are you considering any kind of cell orientation for the horizontals? Pallet changers? Fanuc robot part changers?

 

I'll shoot you an email.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Colin. I think a pallet cell is in the cards. haven't thought about a robot. That's a thought though.

[Surface]

quote:

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American Machinist voted us one of the top ten shops in America last year

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Congratulations. I didn't realize that was you. Surprisingly, your now one of the top nine shops in America. SPM went belly up. They auctioned everything off in the springtime.

[Ployd]

Congrats, I'm just South of you in Tacoma.

 

I was really impressed with the Mazak Rep and the multi tasking machines at the tech expo a couple years ago. I've been reading a lot about Toyota Production System, Cells and Just In Time manufacturing. All very interesting especially if you are laying out a new shop, Good Luck!

 

Also, I've looked at your website a few times. Are you in the process of updating it?

[Bruce Caulley]

A Mazak Variaxis with pallet changer and 25k spindle option eats ally aerospace work.

 

Bruce

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

If you want to go with a cell in the future, Toyoda is a very good way to go. They can mate OLD machines into new cells with relative ease (even machines with different control models ex. Fanuc 16i-M's to 31i-M's. I know Mori has had issues on that front. With Toyodas you can "grow" the machine. Meaning say you get the machine with a 60 tool magazine, and you want to get 120, it's a field installable option, or to go from 60 to 240 or 320(I think that's the number), you can do that as well after you've bought the machine. Don;t think you can do that with a Mori or Mazak.

 

Matsuura's come with rack style tool magazines so it's a breeze add tools. With all that said, I'm partial to Fanuc Control machines and because single issue, I would not even consider Mazak or Okuma. Matsuura's MAM72-35V is a 5-Axis VMC that you can get 32 pallets with. The work will need to be relatively small for that one but it's a great machine. 5-Axis with a tail stock. If you need a larger 5-Axis, the MAM72-63V will fit the bill. It's a trunion style machine.

 

JM2C

[MLS]

It might be more than you want or need but the Makino Mag3 is amazing. Bigger than you need, but room is always good in aerospace.

 

Of all the machines I have had experience with (Mazak, Ingersoll, Mori, Toyoda, Cincinnati, and Viper...Ohh...and Haas and Fadal too:) ) The Mag wins hands down in Aluminum.

 

The only downfall is if you crash a spindle you are going to replace it every time. Without Vericut it would be risky.

[SLJ]

"The only downfall is if you crash a spindle you are going to replace it every time. Without Vericut it would be risky."

Or even let it chirp a couple of times from what I've heard from one of our customers. They've put about 8 spindles in theirs. Makino stood the 1st two, the rest have been on them, about 80K a pop. Amazing machine though.

[Greg_J]

http://www.gildemeister.com/us,milling,dmc200fd?opendocument

Check out the PDF file on that site.

What do you think?

 

Greg

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Man Oh Man. There are some serious questions running around in my mind. The Selway rep was just here. Funny how I get to thinkin about adding some capacity and they show up.

[iowajim62]

Dan just happens to have some contacts on this board Jim.

Very good suggestions so far here. Only thing I can say is decisions,decisions.

BTW Congrats on the Top Nine

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Has anyone on here had any experience with a Daewoo Horizontal? I ask because I have a Daewoo lathe and it's been outstanding.

I know it's not a high end lathe, but it's a workhorse.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

The Daewoo is going to be light on control features from what I know.

 

When you decide to get to the point where you want to start comparing machines, make sure you get a complete breakdown of included features/options. Personally I would not even consider a machine without a Fanuc Control REGARDLESS of builder. Hands down the most bullet proof controls made.

[Colin Gilchrist]

I just finished a post for a Daewoo horizontal with pallet changer. It seems like a nice machine. I've heard some good things about it.

[SLJ]

We have the DHP-5000 Horizontal twin pallet with a Fanuc control. It's been a very good machine for us so far, only had it for about a year. We've got 6 other Daewoo verticals including 4 DVC-400s. I think that pipeline is about closed due to lots of problems from the local dealer support team. Had lots of small problems carrying on for months with the verticals that don't seem to get fixed. The main fix-it guy locally even told us it was because we were pushing them too hard. We're 99% aluminum and nowhere near up to the speeds and feeds I've seen from some of the guys here or in the brochures. Will be looking at Mori and Makino after this.

[MIL-TFP-41]

quote:

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Personally I would not even consider a machine without a Fanuc Control REGARDLESS of builder.

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We have 2 Matsuura 5 axis, one a MAM72-63v cell with the Fanuc, the other a V-Max800 5 axis with the 840Di. The 840 eats the Fanuc for breakfast...no comparason when it comes to high speed machining. Many other factors make the Siemens a better control....just my personal opinion...

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Well, I have heard about some issues getting parts from the factory with Daewoos. I love my lathe but may not look seriously at them if parts are going to be an issue.

[SLJ]

In our case, getting the parts hasn't been an issue. Getting someone who knew what to do with them has been. To make it clear, these are local "techs", not Daewoo people.

[Mugsy DeDawg]

I would suggest looking at the OKUMA line. The iron is strong, and the support is very good with Gosiger Northwest. They also work with Cimtech, the northwest MasterCAM distributor. They are located in Sumner. The new P200 control has some very interesting features. Boeing was a beta test site and development was done to enhance it with a variety of tool load and collision avoidance features. If your are looking at high speed profiling, they have a Super Nurbs packagage that makes the parts come out looking polished and perfectly blended.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I just got back from Ellisons. Looked at a NH4000DCG with a 6 pallet pool nad probing.

Pretty impressive machine. And pretty solid support.

I just got a call from the Daewoo folks so I think I'll call em back.

[Rick Henrickson 65]

selway has the toyoda line and matsurra I think at universal we did have some support issues with matsurra.

makino we had a brand new cell there you might want to take a look great cell controler and machine

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...Many other factors make the Siemens a better control...

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Until the PC hardware inside the PC Based Controls becomes obsolete and something (which never happens in PC's ) fails. Then what??? Maybe not in 5 years, but what about 10 years? That's got to be something to consider. Right now I can go to the local FANUC Tech center and get 3M hardware - 25+ Years later! I'm not saying the Siemans Control does not outperform FANUC, I'm just saying, personally PC based controls concern me for reasons of longevity, ease of use, and userbase.

[MIL-TFP-41]

quote:

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originally posted by CNC Apps Guy

I'm not saying the Siemans Control does not outperform FANUC, I'm just saying, personally PC based controls concern me for reasons of longevity, ease of use, and userbase.

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This is what is great about having a company such as Methods/Matsuura dealing with a newer/different technology. I understand the concerns about having a hard drive fail, yet I have full confidence in that within 24 hrs I can have another hard drive (a ghost image) of what is in my machine (minus the programs & offsets).

In contrast to Rick, It's been my personal experience that these guys(both Methods & Matsuura) do nothing but support their product/machines....which brings me back to topic.

 

No matter who you buy from, make sure they SUPPORT their product. If you go the 5 axis route, Matsuura comes with a complete psot processing solution/machine simulator, CAMplete....a big consideration when it comes to 5 axis work

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I hav a feeling I'm going to break this into three purchases. I've been talking to Selway about Matsuura's and Toyoda's, And Ellisons about Mori's and CNC Sales about Daewoos. I was surprised to find that Mori does not build a neutating head machine. I'm sniffing about parts that are 35 to 38" long.

And, I am full well aware about service is king. I have never heard a bad thing about Ellisons. I have heard and experienced some bad stuff with Sellway. But I've only delt with them in the past few years for my teo Haas'. I had a couple of Matsuuras years ago but had no service issues at all on them.

CNC Sales have been great as has Daewoo

Going to call the Mazak and Okuma guys next week too.

Who reps Makino in the northwest?