Probing questions for a Horizontal

[SydwazShawn]

Dragracer- I thought Selway only offered Toyoda, Matsuura? Anyway we have an older hori. and it only goes in 1 deg incr. Over 80% of the jobs that would be good for the hori. need full fourth. We have to use a Haas with full fourth. It really sucks to have a machine that has all the power and rigidity, yet no full fourth to use..

 

The controls on the Mori may not be the best, but I think they make a very good machine for the price. We have a NL3000 YT lathe, and that thing is built like a brick house!!! It is an excellent machine. If you don’t want go the Mori. route, I would suggest either a Makino, or a Matsuura. From what I have researched they are very strong and well built machines. I have seen a Makino perform and they are very nice!!! As far as the Matsuura’s go, I have not seen one in action but they look like they are the strongest machines out of the three.

 

Anyway good luck!! Shawn..

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I've allways had a soft spot for Matsuura. Great machine. I had three little MV500's years ago with Yasnac controls. I worked in a shop (coupple of them actually) that had Matsuuras. Big strong machines.

The first time I saw high speed machining was on a LaBlond Makino. I was amazed. that was in about 1985 or so.

[robk]

We have a few Matsuuras in here (MV760's and 1000's) with Fanuc & Yasnac controls. We also have a few Mori-Seiki's (MH 50,63, and 80's) with Fanuc controls, and one Tsugami with Fanuc control, but none of them compare to the Mazaks (FJV, Variaxis, and Integrex) with Matrix controls. Just my opinion...

[Rick Henrickson 65]

Jim I really like to see shops investing in americas future we were once a great producer and I think we still should be if people would open there eyes I still think we can produce a part as cheap as anyone with the right equipment and people I have seen at least 3 small shops here in washington go with this modern form of thinking and they are doing amazing. I feel I do know many machines and of course you can always have each dealer to a runoff for your specific needs to.

control options, tool magazine size, cell controller, probing, tool length measure, tool life management, load monitoring, just some of the considerations but Colin is right on vericut will help and save you time and money. Accra verifys 100% of there code as many other shops are doing now. Oh and yes full 4th is not even a question it is a must today.

[crazy^millman]

quote:

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Oh and yes full 4th is not even a question it is a must today.

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Do you buy a car without tires? Why buy one of these machines without it? Want to save a little now to pay couple $100,000 later in lost time benefits and production capabilities.

[iowajim62]

quote:

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Why buy one of these machines without it?

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Because some work only needs indexing, and if your doing production work that only needs indexing not full 4th you have wasted money that could have been better spent. Have run production indexing work on both full and 1 deg machines and it made no difference to the parts.

[Colin Gilchrist]

Jimmy, it does make no difference to the parts. I would think though that with a full fourth axis, you could actually bid on some parts that require 4 axis simultaneous cutting. Shouldn't that be the goal? Utilize the most advanced techniques to manufacture difficult parts and make a lot of money?

 

If you are getting a machine like this, why would you want to bid on the simple parts that only require indexing? There are plenty of shops out there that can take a block of metal, cut a flat and put some holes in it. For that a machine that only does indexing is fine.

 

I don't think this is the type of work Jim wants to go after though. I certainly wouldn't want to do it. I've made enough little simple parts in my life. If it isn't challenging, I don't even want to see it.

[SydwazShawn]

We thought the same way till the job went away.. Now 80% of our work needs full fourth. We didn't think we would ever need it! Well its 6 years later and we cant even use the Hori, we have to use a Haas with 4th. I guess plan for the future if you can spare the coin..

[Psychomill]

quote:

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and if your doing production work that only needs indexing not full 4th you have wasted money that could have been better spent

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Sure about that Jimmy? I'd have to disagree here. A full 4th at the time of the machine purchase is dirt cheap compared to wishing you had one later... never mind having a machine fitted in the field. I just changed out a Mazak FH6800 and a FH8800 to full 4th (you remember them) just "because". And its already paid for itself in the last few months with new work and transferability. I also had 8800 #3 upgraded to a 240 tool hive as well. It was a joke buying those things the way they did.

 

But back to the subject.... For many makes, the cost of the full 4th is chump change as an option when considering the overall price of the machine. Even the monthly pay schedule for your loan doesn't change that drastically. I would say, considering resale values and most importantly... CAPABILITY .... it's a wise decision even if you don't have a current need for it. You never know when you might quote a job next week and you need it (as mentioned above). On big machines, it's a big plus for B axis alignments and dynamic compensations. But I'd most certainly opt for it regardless of the machine size. Back in the old days, you had to consider the strength of a coupling over a drive system. But this has been improved greatly over the years.

[Colin Gilchrist]

+1 Psychomill, well stated.

[Tim Johnson]

The actual indexing time is usually quicker on a full 4th also.

[YoDoug®]

If I was spending that kind of money I would also think about not only full 4th, but drives for 5th as well. The cost of being full 4th and 5th ready is small in comparison to the overall purchase. Being able to offer machining of blisks, impellers and other 5 axis work can bring a lot of high dollars part opportunities your way.

[iowajim62]

Guys,

I was just pointing out the other side for a shop that has long term production contracts on jobs in the shop already. An indexer would be just fine for that. For New Work ya wanna bring in the best and the baddest. Yes Rob your right I do remember those issues. And it would be nice to get everything the way ya want upfront not go back later and wish we had this or that.

Colin,

Yes agree completely that you should go for it when it comes to pursuing new work. Leave the little stuff for the shops that don't want to move on to the new century.

 

Jim,

I just wanna fix that sig of yours where it says:

Two, count em TWO seats!

so that it says:

One, count em ONE seat!

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I thought about a five axis machine last year when we sat down to think about projections for this year.

I have a couple opportunitles to go sfter soem 5x work. But most of it is 4020 work. That's a good sized machine. What I've been finding are machines that are trunion machines with a MUCH smaller work envelope. If I go that dirrection, I'd rather buy a neutating head machine.

But at least we thought about it...

Not yet.

[crazy^millman]

quote:

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I've made enough little simple parts in my life. If it isn't challenging, I don't even want to see it.

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Glad I am not the only one that feels this way. I really really want to get back in to 5 axis mill programming. Mill/Turns are ok, but give me a 6 to 12 week project doing some crazy milling with angles walls and just taxing a computer to even process the toolpaths and you made my day.

 

Back to the topic at hand, but simple is as simple does. Got a dedicated product where you are only going to run one part or 2 parts that is your choice. The running discussion here is a new machine, and again anyone out there is in the present position to make a decision about purchasing a horizontal and do not think full 4th axis is worth the extra money do me a favor and don't even buy the machine. I know of 10 different places that have 1 deg indexing machines of those 6 have other machines with full 4th axis. Like mentioned above guess which machines stay the busiest and which one sit idle more. All it takes is that one job where if you had full 4th you are very glad you had it!!!! From a strength stand point I have seen 1000 mm machines holding 4 ton parts where a 8in face mill was taking .3 depth of cuts in 4130 about 6" wide and you would never know the difference.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Ron

My question about the full fourth was really out of ignorance. I had been told, that they were more fragile. I have two machines with a full fourth but don't use them very often. I "Could" if I were to take the time to build a set of tombstones for them...but I haven't.

I was wondering if the money would be better spent for other things if that was in fact the case. It'll be a full fourth.

[crazy^millman]

I have seen pallets get pulled off machine before the 4th axis was moved so take from that what you will.

[Psychomill]

I'll second that to Ron's experience as well....

 

I personally have no second thoughts about buying into a full 4th from many makes today.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Just got a little info on a 400mm Kitamura.

I had no idea......

400mm machine. 37500lbs. Hoowah!

[Rick Henrickson 65]

Jim I dont know if I would get to excited about kit's I would check with current customers around our area we had 2 where I use to work and they were down alot. There is such a variety Toyoda, nigatta, makino, mori, mazak, okuma, are all top notch. many choices and options.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Sigh...

First glance was pretty impressive

[Tim Simmermon]

I just got a quote on a Daewoo HP5100. Looking into our first one as well!

[Thee Dragracer1951]

That's a nice machine. How are you getting it configured?

[Tim Simmermon]

I was looking at the following options:

 

Tool Life Management

Full Fourth Axis

116 Tools

Renishaw Part Probe

Renishaw Tool Setter

 

It comes with a 14K spindle, Thru Coolant, Chip Conveyor, and Macro B to name a few. I've been watching this thread closely and have learned a lot from this thread.

 

We have two Daewoo Lathes that we have bought within the past 2 years and we love them. Service is good and only minor issues.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

I also have a Daewoo lathe nad love it. It a real work horse. I get great service from my local dealer. I have been talking to them for a while now as they know where I want to be in two years. I understand the linear guides are not balls but rollers. Kind of the best of both worlds.

I have a quote for an HP4000 with 170 tools, full fourth, probing, tool management, TSC, AI NANO, and we're talking about pallet pools, data servers, ethernet, yada yada.

Lots of questions.