Haas Vm3

[lanart]

Haas machines have made me alot of money. Enough that I am dreading April 15th.....

[M_CODE1]

Seen this Haas post so i wanted to know if anyone

has one of the Haas HMC's with the pallet pool. We purchased one of the EC-400PP and will be arriving as soon as its done being showed at Eastec. Hope fully it works out great for us.

[lanart]

we got one about a month ago. we're still in the learning curve. need to get a better post. But it does turn some old 3 operation jobs into a 2 op job. nice.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...Give Haas another twelve years and everyone will be "driving" a Haas and all the "Mori's, Mazaks, etc." will become the GM's and Ford's of the industry...

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I'm not going to bash Haas or any other commodity builder. Enough has been said on the + and the -. I do however take issue with the above statement because it's

 

Why do I say that? For 1, the Japanese builders I am familiar with generaly have a philosophy - continuous improvement or Kaizen. See, the Japanese will not rest on their laurels. They will continue to improve their equipment (for the most part) I've recently seen some new model Mori's, Okumas, and Mazaks, that are, shall we say... NOT your father's Japanese machine tool. But these models in question a piggybacking on the company name without having the premier quality of their higher end equipment. Seems as though some of the larger builders I mentioned, they are trying to inch their way into the commodity market. To do that, they have to do some things that they would never even conceive of doing on their high end models, things like shimming the linear ways instead of scraping the mating surfaces, no longer manufacturing their own spindles, ball screws and ball nuts... things like that - while still claiming the same quality.. Some builders however refuse to go that route and continue to build the finest equipment money can buy, equipment that can reproduce itself, which commodity machines cannot do.

 

But, with all that said, each market segment has it's place. As long as you keep each machine in it's place, they should serve you well and do for the most part.

 

JM2C

[800mxz]

Been working with Haas since the begining (VF-1 lunar landers) and I will put it with most machines costing allot more money.

 

I work everyday with Robodrills, Makino, Matsura allong with the Haas. And they run and run and run. When they break (all machines break) the cost of the parts and service is 50-75% LESS than anyother. And the guy down the road has the parts and will be there the next morning to put it in.

 

I have put the VF-2 thru VF-4SS machines up againt Makino "S" series, which is almost 2x the money and one with good programming skills and knowing your tooling can get 80-90% the performance under 15,000 of the S series. Of course it will never get 100%, the Makino is a fine machine. But for the same money, 2 spindles are much faster than one.

 

 

Also, Haas is building 70+ machines A DAY. If they are throw away, cheap, starter machines, I would like to see the hole they throw them all into.

[mgsanchez]

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I'm not going to bash Haas or any other commodity builder. Enough has been said on the + and the -. I do however take issue with the above statement because it's

 

Why do I say that? For 1, the Japanese builders I am familiar with generaly have a philosophy - continuous improvement or Kaizen. See, the Japanese will not rest on their laurels.

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Haas is following the continuous the improvement philosophy also. Look at Haas' first machines that they produced as 800mxz dubbed "Lunar Lander" to the machines they produce now. That's continuous improvement! Haas is just now celebrating their twenty-fifth anniversary in business.

 

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... NOT your father's Japanese machine tool.

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Actually, that would be me. I have been in the business for thirty-three years now. I ran those machines back then also.

 

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Seems as though some of the larger builders I mentioned, they are trying to inch their way into the commodity market. To do that, they have to do some things that they would never even conceive of doing on their high end models, things like shimming the linear ways instead of scraping the mating surfaces, no longer manufacturing their own spindles, ball screws and ball nuts...

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Now why would a "Quality" builder do that? Are they losing money and market share?

 

Buy American, the job you save may be your own!

[mgsanchez]

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Some builders however refuse to go that route and continue to build the finest equipment money can buy, equipment that can reproduce itself, which commodity machines cannot do.

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That statement is no longer true. Haas is now replacing brand X machines with Haas machines on their manufacturing line!!

 

Buy American, the job you save may be your own!

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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Some builders however refuse to go that route and continue to build the finest equipment money can buy, equipment that can reproduce itself, which commodity machines cannot do.

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That statement is no longer true. Haas is now replacing brand X machines with Haas machines on their manufacturing line!!

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They touted that they made Haas with Haas in the beginning as well, and then, as you've obviously seen, they had to abandon that strategy, for good reasons, performance, reliability, automation, precision, repeatability, etc...

 

Don't get me wrong, they serve a purpose, and they serve it very well for the most part (I happen to be of the opinion that their recent quality issues arise out of their increase in production, a.k.a growing pains and EVERYONE goes through it). But, as of right now, they don't serve the high-end market. The puny spindles are a glaring example of the difference between a high end machine vs. a commodity machine.

 

Something I'd like to see is a US Company build a good control. Something that's NOT conversational or PC based. Something bullet-proof like FANUC, that looks and feels like FANUC. They can't be a machine tool builder though, at least not at first.

 

Buy the best you can buy, the job you save may be your own.

[Chris Rizzo]

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Buy the best you can buy, the job you save may be your own

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looking at the BIG picture, that's the truth. first hand experience here.

[chris m]

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Something bullet-proof like FANUC, that looks and feels like FANUC

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From the operator's perspective, Fanuc controls suck. I know that Fanuc controls are great for making the machine go, and that they are very powerful, but I'd rather see a combination of the best characteristics of the major builders' controls than a pure Fanuc ripoff

[fistafury17]

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What a P.O.S.! The Mazak

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I have run more Mazaks than I can honestly remember - ALL GOOD!!

 

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Haas part pass with flying colors!

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I had the not so pleasant opportunity to run 1 Haas VF3 - VERY BAD!!

 

Maybe we got stuck with lemons.

 

The only reason the Haas was used is because of the Creative Evolution control. Ever seen one?

[mgsanchez]

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They touted that they made Haas with Haas in the beginning as well, and then, as you've obviously seen, they had to abandon that strategy, for good reasons, performance, reliability, automation, precision, repeatability, etc...

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There is not a single company in this world that got it right on the first try. It's about evolution and Haas has not given up. This current attempt will be better than the last. Haas is determined to make Haas' with Haas' and they will! I support this American company like I support another American company. That company is Harley Davidson. Harley took a lot of bashing in the 70's much like Haas is taking now. I supported Harley then (even thought I spent a lot of time on the side of the road fixing the dang things) and I still support them today (current stable is down to four from seven). The real reason that I believe in Haas is because I believe in America!

[mgsanchez]

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Maybe we got stuck with lemons.

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Maybe so. I like Mazaks, except for the one we had. There was another guy in our area that had a Variaxis (730) also. He also had nothing but trouble with it. The tool changer would throw tools like a baseball pitcher. He never did get it resolved.

[DaveR]

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and buying a '20HP' spindle without a gearbox will not be a happy experience if you are doing any heavy stock removal because I can stall the belt drive machine roughing aluminum without pushing all that hard.

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Not been my experience at all, I can run 200 ipm with a 3/4 EM all day on my belt drive VF-2. It's never stalled or even slowed in aluminum.

 

Only time I stalled was taking .100 in inconel 625 with a 3" face mill. Used a 2" face mill and it worked fine, 70-80% spindle load. You don't have to have a gear box and belt machines are not gutless. I cut 6-4 titanium almost every day on my Haas.

 

Dave

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...Harley took a lot of bashing in the 70's...

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ALL of it was earned. The Little 3 still can't get it right and they are about to be overtaken by the Japanese on of all things - that last dominant automotive segment...TRUCKS Because of their arrogance. IDIOTS! They didn't learn the first time...

 

Haas is doing a number of things right. They must be because they lead the commodity machine tool market by a longshot. But, when I see HMC's with 200+ tool magazines, capability for nearly unlimited pallets in an RGV type set up, tool life management, beefy spindles that don't require the coolant to be running to cool the spindle (they may have dealt with that one already) 10 year reliability (when cutting more than aluminum), 5 Axis machines with more than 1 pallet, then I'll give your (seems like anyway) arguement that they are high-end, creedence, but until then... they are where they are which is fine for a large and growing segment of the US Mfg. sector.

 

In my world though, my customers demand unattended machine time, nights, weekends, etc... when NO ONE is even in the building. They run large varieties of parts SIMULTANEOUSLY, requiring up to 30+ pallets per spindle. They require access to hundreds of tools without operator intervention. They often require remote access to their system (currently Haas has an offereing for this I believe, I saw something to that effect at the show - nicely done from what I saw), they require tool redundancy, 1GB+ memory capacity, often BigPlus spindles, etc... and that's just the tip of the iceberg. That's my world that I deal with every single day. I know who's there and who's not. It's my job. It's also my job to help get my customers to the point where they can have a single shift's worth of labor and 3 shift's worth of output. THAT is where and how we as a nation will compete with foreign competition (not including machine tools - we lost that battle in the 80's due again to arrogance... there's a common thread to the failure of the US companies to remain competitive). Not bashing, just stating the facts.

 

[soapbox]

We all program CNC's, NOT ONC's. (Computer Numerical Control as opposed to Operator Numerical Control). If operators need to be standing by the machines we're doing something wrong.[/soapbox]

 

JM2C

[Bruce Caulley]

If you are happy with say 200IPM with a 3/4" tool and are still making money, then fair enough.

 

BUT, imagine for a second you could run a 2.5" at 400IPM with 1/4" DOC and not have any problems (other than operators $hi77ing their pants and wanting me to slow it down). I was doing this in 7075 with no dramas on Mazaks and Makinos.

 

National pride is one thing, but to cut off one's nose............

 

Haas have a place, hell I am even buying one at the moment , but at some point once a company is established a bit of reality needs to set in. ALL the comparisons I seem to see between Haas and Japanese machines are not at all valid. James has it in a nutshell, a cell setup as he described will outperform a row of manned machines. I have personally seen cycletime reductions of 80% when a bit of technique and thought go into a setup on a more expensive machine. That same thought and effort might have only produced a 20% result on a Haas or equivalent.

 

And the most important thing is labour. I give this challenge to anyone out there:

 

Record actual spindle time on the controls and divide it by the labour needed to keep that shift running. In a jobbing shop you might expect for say five machines a spindle time of 15 hours total with 40 hours labour.

 

Replace those 5 machines with two good ones and divert two of your staff to ensuring as much as possible like tool-setting, programming/verification, material handling. Invest in the best tools and quick change fixturing you can afford and go from there. You now have the opportunity to get 12 hours spindle time on that shift and another 12 on the second , but half staffed. Four staff on early shift and two on the afternoon shift gives you 24 hours spindle time and 48 hours labour.

 

Sounds like you are losing out right? NO, because each hour on a top end machine, if done right, can give you up to the equivalent of three on a cheaper "commodity" machine. Easily.

 

This is a job shop example, continuous production is another kettle of fish.

 

Bruce

[chris m]

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You don't have to have a gear box and belt machines are not gutless

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I disagree, but this isn't a Haas bash; all belt-drive machines have serious torque limitations. I have a 1990 gearbox Matsuura that has about 7.5 horsepower and it will walk all over my various "20HP" VMCs roughing cast iron with a 3" facemilling cutter. Because of the relatively low price of Haas machines, and therefore the relatively affordable gearbox machine, I was merely suggesting that it is well worth the added investment for the gearbox if that would help your cause

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...all belt-drive machines have serious torque limitations...

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True Dat! This has absolutely nothing ot do with any particular builder, it's an inherent limitation in that particular power transfer method(belt), no more, no less.

 

Direct Drive spindles have their place as do Geared Heads, just as Gasoline Powered Vehicles vs. Diesel Powered Vehicles.

 

And about the IPM thing... personally I like the 1,000 IPM+ range myself in Alum. It scares the $#!+ out of the people around it so it tends to keep people away from it

[Kevangel]

Everyone should look at a spindle torque table on the model they are looking at, could be a real eye opener, especially the higher RPM models, (if they are not a geared head). I often wonder if they can even drill a hole, but then, they may not want to.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

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I support this American company like I support another American company. That company is Harley Davidson. Harley took a lot of bashing in the 70's much like Haas is taking now. I supported Harley then (even thought I spent a lot of time on the side of the road fixing the dang things) and I still support them today (current stable is down to four from seven). The real reason that I believe in Haas is because I believe in America!

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You know, I have four Harleys too. About 60 Brit bikes as well. I also have two Haas's. I love my Harleys. But they leak. They wet sump. They aren't real fast and they don't turn very well. Those are the honest deficiencies in the bikes. The honest issue with "MY" Haas machines is they ain't very strong, and service sucks. That ain't got nuttin to do with supporting America. That's got to do with being honest about these machines.

I'm in the process of investing a half million dollars in new machines for my shop. Haas, or Fadal, or Hurco, or Miltronics, or any of the other American tool mfgs do not have the machines I need to grow my buisness and become more competative. I bought Haas machines because of the price and ease of use for new operators. In my case, that was a mistake. They do just fine on Fanuc controled machines.

I'm moving towards lights out machining. I'm moving towards modular tooling, multi spindles, just in time lean manufacturing. Haas has nothing to offer in this area. Have you ever used a Haas barfeed? It is the slowest thing I have ever seen.

This ain't about showing support for American mfg's. this is about being as competative as I can to grow so I can be the american mfg that is competative in the world market. End of story...

[htm01]

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this is about being as competative as I can to grow

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that sounds like what people say to justify going to china.

[mgsanchez]

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...Harley took a lot of bashing in the 70's...

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ALL of it was earned.

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I'm guessing you missed the point, Harley turned their company around, despite the nay sayers!

 

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I love my Harleys. But they leak. They wet sump. They aren't real fast

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Harleys don't leak, they mark their territory! Seriously, I have not had any of my Harleys leak since my Panhead and Shovelhead days.

 

Up until last year a Harley powered MC held the land speed record for 16 years with rider Dave Compos. Harley also has the quickest MC on the planet 6.21 seconds in the quarter mile with rider Doug Vancil. In the pro-stock series, Harleys V-Rod won multiple championships.

 

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I own about 60 Brit bikes

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I'm sorry

 

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National pride is one thing, but to cut off one's nose............

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I guess "We shall march down, very quiet, to our stations by the sea."

[Thee Dragracer1951]

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Harley also has the quickest MC on the planet 6.21 seconds in the quarter mile with rider Doug Vancil.

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Larry Mc Bride went 5.799 @ 235.8 at Valdosta this year. He is the first into the 5's and did it I believe in 2004

Doug is a nice guy...Doug is not the fastet on the planet.

It's not a "Harley" either. Nor is the Byron Hines designed "Harley.

Vancils motor is a Jim McClure overkill motor. No knife and fork crank. Not even REMOTELY a Harley.

[chris m]

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Harley also has the quickest MC on the planet 6.21 seconds in the quarter mile with rider Doug Vancil. In the pro-stock series, Harleys V-Rod won multiple championships.

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Dude, don't make me laugh. Run your V-Rod against a GSX1000R from a stoplight some day and tell me about the quickest motorcycle on the planet. Man, I needed a laugh today, thanks.

 

All of these Pro classes are a total fraud; like saying Warren Johnson was really running an Oldsmobile all those years. Didn't see too many 550 cubic inch Oldsmobiles with 2200CFM worth of carbs, 9-inch rear ends, and Lenco trannies down at my dealership

[mgsanchez]

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Larry Mc Bride went 5.799 @ 235.8 at Valdosta this year. He is the first into the 5's and did it I believe in 2004

Doug is a nice guy...Doug is not the fastet on the planet.

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Dang, I must have overslept. I hate when that happens, but 6.21 in the quarter is nothing to sneeze at.